(04-14-2022, 11:47 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Dorian got even better this year, but he was already a quality starter. He did not make the same leap Brunson did from a responsibility standpoint.
I can't argue against Brunson.
But a couple of things about DFS. In my mind he was pretty clearly the second most important player, carrying the second most important load this season. Last season some folks were still arguing that he wasn't a real NBA starter. So that's a fairly huge leap.
Additionally, his offensive game expanded in ways that I don't think anyone expected, and in ways that aren't normally seen for a player of his experience. I suppose, just based on Kidd's encouragement for him to expand his game, he added a variety of skills in attacking close outs. He, of course, added more ball fake, straight drive and dunk to the arsenal. But then he expanded that to include nifty layups in traffic and good passes out to the corner. He's also handled the ball in scoring, passing and initiating situations that don't just include beating close outs. And he added all that to his game while shouldering the heaviest defensive load on the team and leading all non-Luka players in minutes and sharing the lead with Spencer for best 3pt percentage.
Who had Dorian as second best player on their radar? He was better than that max player, future co-corner stone that we sent packing. But, of course, so was Brunson.
(04-14-2022, 01:10 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I can't argue against Brunson.
But a couple of things about DFS. In my mind he was pretty clearly the second most important player, carrying the second most important load this season. Last season some folks were still arguing that he wasn't a real NBA starter. So that's a fairly huge leap.
Additionally, his offensive game expanded in ways that I don't think anyone expected, and in ways that aren't normally seen for a player of his experience. I suppose, just based on Kidd's encouragement for him to expand his game, he added a variety of skills in attacking close outs. He, of course, added more ball fake, straight drive and dunk to the arsenal. But then he expanded that to include nifty layups in traffic and good passes out to the corner. He's also handled the ball in scoring, passing and initiating situations that don't just include beating close outs. And he added all that to his game while shouldering the heaviest defensive load on the team and leading all non-Luka players in minutes and sharing the lead with Spencer for best 3pt percentage.
Who had Dorian as second best player on their radar? He was better than that max player, future co-corner stone that we sent packing. But, of course, so was Brunson.
That's fair. I guess the difference is I argued heavily against the folks that suggested DFS was not a legit starter last season, and I would argue he was the second most important player on the team last year. I would also argue that Brunson has closed the gap quite a bit.
(04-14-2022, 02:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I argued heavily against the folks that suggested DFS was not a legit starter last season
That's how you got on the "one of the good ones" list, my guy. Never change.
(04-14-2022, 02:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]That's fair. I guess the difference is I argued heavily against the folks that suggested DFS was not a legit starter last season, and I would argue he was the second most important player on the team last year. I would also argue that Brunson has closed the gap quite a bit.
That's fair as well. I agree with all of it.
I even had the thought, as I typed my case, "Huh, I'm comparing DFS current status to his previous status as perceived by folks who I thought underrated Dorian." So I kind of did some apples to oranges, but then went with it anyway. Maybe my thought, though I don't remember this part, was that DFS improved so much that there is no way that folks could peg him as anything but one of our top players at this point.
(04-14-2022, 02:57 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's how you got on the "one of the good ones" list, my guy. Never change.
We need to call it the "Prince List" for God King supporters.
(04-15-2022, 09:50 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So lifetime achievement award as opposed to MIP award cause no single year was enough of a bump to get him in that conversation.
It depends on what you want to measure to define improvement. A good bit of the DFS argument comes from the expansion of his game (doing new things) and doing so without losing efficiency. A good overall measure might be VORP where DFS went from a career high 1.0 to a career high-er 1.9 (which is tied for second on the team with DFS). Part of defining MIP might come from answering the following question...
Before the season from among JB and DFS, I expected _________ to have the second best VORP on the team. Whichever one you pick, the other one is probably MIP. BTW, if I'm being fair, Lebron and EPM tell different stories. Both players actually dropped their Lebron score from season to season. Brunson took a much bigger jump than DFS in EPM.
My issue with picking Brunson is he pretty well exactly matched the expectation one would have had from a 27% increase in minutes. If you look at him per minute, his PER and WS/48 and scoring all stayed the same (so the improvement all came from the extra minutes). Boards went down and assists went up on a per minute basis and his TS% went down 0.35% while Usage went from 20.2 to 21.9. Keeping efficient shooting with an uptick in minutes and usage is an accomplishment, but I'm not sure it is improvement. Not trying to dog JB. I like what we got from all four candidates and all four certainly passed most people's expectations. I just think DFS is the best of the best for this category.
(04-15-2022, 10:54 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]A good overall measure might be VORP where DFS went from a career high 1.0 to a career high-er 1.9 (which is tied for second on the team with DFS).
Which DFS was supposed to be someone else in this sentence?
You know, I just keep seeing LEBRON, the metric, saying really silly things. I know any grand theory of basketball stat says silly things. But LEBRON has been even sillier, imho, fwiw.
So....here's my big question....
Was DFS so good this season that you're going to stop trying to trade him?
(04-15-2022, 11:19 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Was DFS so good this season that you're going to stop trying to trade him?
Ouch. That's pretty funny. I think my DFS/JB and DFS/Maxi fantasy trade ratios are pretty low (meaning I think I trade JB and Maxi much more often). But, if I'm wrong about that it is a sign of respect. I try to put myself in the other team's shoes and I just don't see THJ, Brown and Burke bringing back a star (like some here do). I will say there has been a noticeable decline in Powell dump trades recently. Time will tell if that is still true two weeks from now.
(04-15-2022, 10:54 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]A good overall measure might be VORP where DFS went from a career high 1.0 to a career high-er 1.9 (which is tied for second on the team with DFS).
I like your trade posts, Dan, even though I like DFS more. :-)
But what about this quote above? Is one of the "DFS" supposed to be Brunson?
(04-15-2022, 11:56 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Sell high for once 
(04-15-2022, 12:01 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I like your trade posts, Dan, even though I like DFS more. :-)
But what about this quote above? Is one of the "DFS" supposed to be Brunson?
Oops. Second DFS should read Brunson. DFS went from 1.0 to 1.9. Brunson went from 1.2 to 1.9.
(04-15-2022, 11:56 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Sell high for once
I wonder what we could get for Luka.
(04-15-2022, 12:57 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder what we could get for Luka.
He is injured, so we would not be selling high
(04-15-2022, 01:05 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]He is injured, so we would not be selling high
I just talked to God King and his heart is broken with all this trade chatter.
(04-15-2022, 01:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I just talked to God King and his heart is broken with all this trade chatter.
He can release his frustrations on Utah...
So we will sell even higher
(04-15-2022, 01:09 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]He can release his frustrations on Utah...
I read this and a vision of Doe-Doe flying through the air and dunking on Gobert ran through my head
(04-15-2022, 10:54 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]It depends on what you want to measure to define improvement. A good bit of the DFS argument comes from the expansion of his game (doing new things) and doing so without losing efficiency. A good overall measure might be VORP where DFS went from a career high 1.0 to a career high-er 1.9 (which is tied for second on the team with DFS). Part of defining MIP might come from answering the following question...
Before the season from among JB and DFS, I expected _________ to have the second best VORP on the team. Whichever one you pick, the other one is probably MIP. BTW, if I'm being fair, Lebron and EPM tell different stories. Both players actually dropped their Lebron score from season to season. Brunson took a much bigger jump than DFS in EPM.
My issue with picking Brunson is he pretty well exactly matched the expectation one would have had from a 27% increase in minutes. If you look at him per minute, his PER and WS/48 and scoring all stayed the same (so the improvement all came from the extra minutes). Boards went down and assists went up on a per minute basis and his TS% went down 0.35% while Usage went from 20.2 to 21.9. Keeping efficient shooting with an uptick in minutes and usage is an accomplishment, but I'm not sure it is improvement. Not trying to dog JB. I like what we got from all four candidates and all four certainly passed most people's expectations. I just think DFS is the best of the best for this category.
I think one thing to look at is the level of competition he is facing between last year and this year. Last year he was coming off the bench and a significant number of his minutes were against bench players. This season he started and played a lot more minutes against starters. That is why his box score stats (like VORP) don't show an improvement this season, but advanced on/off stats like EPM and Lebron show that he has improved significantly. Also, playing 7 more minutes a game at a high level is added "impact". He basically contributed more than 25% over the previous season without even looking at improved competition.
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