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Here are a few items from the Dameris-Followill pod --


(Lack of) Progress with the Offense 

Kidd’s stated goal for the season was to turn the offense into a less Luka-centric system. They have successfully instituted a couple of minor measures like having someone else bring the ball up on occasion, but Luka's usage is even higher than it was last season. For the most part, mission not accomplished so far.

The offense Kidd envisioned would not be limited to Luka just dishing out more passes for catch-and-shoots instead of taking those shots himself. Rather, it would involve a system where Luka passes to guy 2, who does something creative with the ball, which then ends up with guy 3, who does something skillful and purposeful, and so on, with a great shot going down being the end result of the possession. 

The problem is that, with a couple of possible exceptions, the players on the roster are not up to that. They are used to throwing the ball up for a shot when they receive a pass. If they’re not in a position to do that, they can't see the next move setting up the eventual checkmate. Or even if they do, they don’t have the skills to pull it off. TBD whether this type of vision and skill can be developed. 

The players are still trying to adjust to the new plan. The podcasters do not opine on whether these players can make this offense great, or even good. But BD and MR definitely hold out the possibility that they can be better. 

Luka’s Conditioning 

With Luka’s role having an increased emphasis on back-downs and post-ups this season, he wants to maintain a certain level of bulk. That said, if he wants to be a superstar, sooner or later he’ll have to realize that conditioning is a year-round process (allowing that even superstars take a week or two off here and there). 

Followill thinks that, in terms of the falloff in the past few weeks, Luka's trying to play with a high ankle sprain has been a way more important factor than his overall conditioning. 

Are the Kiddos Headed for the Rotation? 

Moses 

Plays very hard and is already a fan fave. Has a strong work ethic, and is an appreciative and humble personality. He is working with Tyson Chandler, and his current projects are:  reading the game better; seeing plays develop before they actually do; getting into coverages more quickly; and better understanding where he needs to be on offensive plays. 

Mo might be working himself into the rotation, especially with Willie’s continued absence. Followill likes him as the third center, behind KP and Powell (considering Maxi as primarily a 4). Brian points out that Kidd has already developed a 24-minute rotation including Mo (KP-Powell, then KP-Mo, then KP alone, then some combination of  KP-Maxi or either by himself).

Josh. In basketball, there is an important skill and role for the less supremely talented guys — being able to play in such a way as to complement and support better players. Green seems to have a knack for this, and he could develop a place in the rotation with that as the foundation. It could even happen this season, although he may have more players ahead of him than Moses does. 

Neither of these players is expected to turn into a heavy-minutes piece this season. But that’s okay. If they can get into a low-minute, but regular role, that would represent progress for them. 

Biggest short-term goal. Getting everyone healthy.  


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(12-15-2021, 02:45 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Rather, it would involve a system where Luka passes to guy 2, who does something creative with the ball, which then ends up with guy 3, who does something skillful and purposeful, and so on, with a great shot going down being the end result of the possession. [/font][/color][/size]

Followill thinks that, in terms of the falloff in the past few weeks, Luka's trying to play with a high ankle sprain has been a way more important factor than his overall conditioning. 

Really interesting ML. In the other thread I was making a case for Sabonis fitting that "guy 2". Set the screen to Luka, receive the pass from Luka, create something with it or drive and attack the rim, or pass to number 3 if the defense collapses to the paint. I think the combo of Luka and Sabonis would be near unstoppable. I believe guy 3 would be Brunson. The ball would flow smoothly between the 3 of those, and Brunson has the skills of penetration and passing to make it flow to guy 4.

Anyway, I really like Kidds vision. I love it actually. But the current players on the squad cant execute this. Nobody besides Luka and Brunson can drive and attack the rim + make the pass out if the lanes are closed, skills that make flowing offense work. Luka cant pass it to Brunson and Brunson cant pass it to Luka directly, it needs to transition between a big between them. They are both either number 1 or number 3 guys in that sequence. They need the link and the guy 2. And that link is a big with the skills of Sabonis.

That is the skills that make the Denver offense flow with Jokic, linking the PGs with the other wings and guards. Jokic doesnt bring it up, he is guy 2. That was the same skillset Webber and Divac made the Kings offense flow, both being guy 2.

I really see the need for a big with ability to set screens, positioning to recieve the pass, drive and score, finish around the rim, and able to pass it out. General bbIQ. This would transform us as a team if we got Sabonis.

But we are far from that right now, and if we are trying to playing style of basketball, not suiting the skills of players, is a dead end for a coach, and the team. Which we are actually doing at the moment.

On the final part, it was also my guess that the injury makes Luka run slow, not the lack of conditioning. And these two are also somewhat connected. Luka comes from olympics where he was in top shape, so it just doesnt make rational sense he is out of shape, he came in near top conditioning. He has issues with injuries, and needs a rest. Totally agree the extra weight make him much dangerous bullying defenders.

Thanks.  I liked the comments about Mo and Green.   Right now, I am focusing on internal development.  If a trade is there to be made, make it.  But I think in all likelihood if a trade does happen it will be a small one.  

I would throw Frankie in this group as well, but if Dallas can internally develop a few other their youngsters into solid rotation players things start looking better.   I expect some DNP's CD and a lot of up and downs but hopefully we continue to find minutes for these guys.   Cato had an article in the athletic and thought Green time may be a little more unpredictable moving forward.   For instance, he didn't think he would get many minutes, if any, against the Lakers tonight.  He thought Brown would get brief minutes.

(12-15-2021, 03:33 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]That is the skills that make the Denver offense flow with Jokic, linking the PGs with the other wings and guards. Jokic doesnt bring it up, he is guy 2. That was the same skillset Webber and Divac made the Kings offense flow, both being guy 2. 


But we are far from that right now, and if we are trying to playing style of basketball, not suiting the skills of players, is a dead end for a coach, and the team. Which we are actually doing at the moment.

Very interesting analysis in your post, burekemde. 

Offense and Jokic

The podcasters actually talked some about Jokic, mostly as his own type of unicorn. The cited him as having more passes than anyone else in the NBA, and it not being even close. In fact, he is such an outlier that there is substantial doubt that anyone else can really replicate what he does. But even if another guy could play that kind of role well (not necessarily approaching best-in-league), that might go some distance toward making Kidd's vision come true. 

Speaking of Jokic, there was a quote from Luka a year or two ago, before he got more cagey with the media, where he said he thought the Mavs should go after Jokic, and that he "knows" Jokic would come. I have never seen that followed up on, but thought it was interesting at the time. Food for thought, maybe. 

Offense/Defense and Kidd

I'm not really sure how to comment on Kidd's running offensive/defensive systems unsuited to the personnel. Here are a couple of extremes, and of course there are possibilities in the middle. 

Best case scenario -- Kidd has a well-organized and realistic vision of how he wants the team to play on both ends of the court when the team is finalized. He and Cubes realize that the roster he has is not suitable, but their plan is long-term rather than totally win-now, and they are going ahead and implementing the systems this season to get a live sense of where and how they need to shore up the deficiencies. The front office has the vision and capacity to acquire the necessary talent to run the systems, even if it takes a season or two. There is a method in the madness, and while we may not be able to see it yet, it's headed toward greatness. 

Worst case scenario -- Kidd doesn't really know how to implement systems designed to suit the players he has on any given roster. Coming fresh from LA, he is trying to create a Lakers-like look, without the players who can play that way. His main this-season goals are (1) to rehabilitate his reputation around the league, and present a player-friendly image, and (2) to figure out a system that KP is able to make a decent showing in and is willing to participate in. Nico knew a lot of guys as a shoe salesman, but has never put together a roster, doesn't know anything about guys in the league who are not elite talents, and is too beset with trying to patch over the organization's numerous holes to be able to devote his attention to perfecting his roster-construction skills. Cuban is making the decisions anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter so much about Kidd and Nico. 

Of course, I don't present either of these extremes as being the likely case, but I could see the basics of the second scenario being in play. Of course, I hope that there is in fact a plan that makes sense, and that I am wondering why I ever doubted it in a year or two.

(12-15-2021, 02:45 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Are the Kiddos Headed for the Rotation? 

Moses 

Plays very hard and is already a fan fave. Has a strong work ethic, and is an appreciative and humble personality. He is working with Tyson Chandler, and his current projects are:  reading the game better; seeing plays develop before they actually do; getting into coverages more quickly; and better understanding where he needs to be on offensive plays. 

Mo might be working himself into the rotation, especially with Willie’s continued absence. Followill likes him as the third center, behind KP and Powell (considering Maxi as primarily a 4). Brian points out that Kidd has already developed a 24-minute rotation including Mo (KP-Powell, then KP-Mo, then KP alone, then some combination of  KP-Maxi or either by himself).

Josh. In basketball, there is an important skill and role for the less supremely talented guys — being able to play in such a way as to complement and support better players. Green seems to have a knack for this, and he could develop a place in the rotation with that as the foundation. It could even happen this season, although he may have more players ahead of him than Moses does. 

Neither of these players is expected to turn into a heavy-minutes piece this season. But that’s okay. If they can get into a low-minute, but regular role, that would represent progress for them. 

Good to hear. Moses/Green have combined to play 20 minutes+ in competitive games three times this season, and the Mavs record is 3-0. I´d really hate for that to continue. Next thing you know they catch this ugly thing called confidence. Better stop it right now to develop Dwight Powell and Sterling Brown.

(12-15-2021, 04:47 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Good to hear. Moses/Green have combined to play 20 minutes+ in competitive games three times this season, and the Mavs record is 3-0. I´d really hate for that to continue. Next thing you know they catch this ugly thing called confidence. Better stop it right now to develop Dwight Powell and Sterling Brown.

M2021, you rock. I can't tell if you're happier when young players get played and succeed, or when your doom and gloom predictins come true! :-)

Happy times for you!!!!


edit: and happy times for all of us if Green and Moses are players!!!!!

(12-15-2021, 04:47 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Better stop it right now to develop Dwight Powell and Sterling Brown.

I'm starting to wonder whether MBrown has a chance of breaking into the rotation. I think he might, mostly because of the nebulous nature of whatever it is that WCS is going though. For all we know, it could be the team shutting him down because they're trading him. 

But it doesn't take a fortune teller to predict that SBrown and/or Ntilikina will both be given every opportunity to get their minutes back from Green when they're healthy.

(12-15-2021, 03:36 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks.  I liked the comments about Mo and Green.   Right now, I am focusing on internal development.  If a trade is there to be made, make it.  But I think in all likelihood if a trade does happen it will be a small one.  

I would throw Frankie in this group as well, but if Dallas can internally develop a few other their youngsters into solid rotation players things start looking better.   I expect some DNP's CD and a lot of up and downs but hopefully we continue to find minutes for these guys.   Cato had an article in the athletic and thought Green time may be a little more unpredictable moving forward.   For instance, he didn't think he would get many minutes, if any, against the Lakers tonight.  He thought Brown would get brief minutes.

No intention to leave Frankie out. The podcasters didn't focus on him, since he hadn't played much in the last few games.  

Yes, it's very hard to predict the trajectory of these youngsters, or what to read into the latest developments, what with all the absences, possible trades, etc. Hope they make the most of the opportunities they are getting.

(12-15-2021, 03:33 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Really interesting ML. In the other thread I was making a case for Sabonis fitting that "guy 2". Set the screen to Luka, receive the pass from Luka, create something with it or drive and attack the rim, or pass to number 3 if the defense collapses to the paint. I think the combo of Luka and Sabonis would be near unstoppable. I believe guy 3 would be Brunson. The ball would flow smoothly between the 3 of those, and Brunson has the skills of penetration and passing to make it flow to guy 4.

Anyway, I really like Kidds vision. I love it actually. But the current players on the squad cant execute this. Nobody besides Luka and Brunson can drive and attack the rim + make the pass out if the lanes are closed, skills that make flowing offense work. Luka cant pass it to Brunson and Brunson cant pass it to Luka directly, it needs to transition between a big between them. They are both either number 1 or number 3 guys in that sequence. They need the link and the guy 2. And that link is a big with the skills of Sabonis.

That is the skills that make the Denver offense flow with Jokic, linking the PGs with the other wings and guards. Jokic doesnt bring it up, he is guy 2. That was the same skillset Webber and Divac made the Kings offense flow, both being guy 2. 

I really see the need for a big with ability to set screens, positioning to recieve the pass, drive and score, finish around the rim, and able to pass it out. General bbIQ. This would transform us as a team if we got Sabonis.

But we are far from that right now, and if we are trying to playing style of basketball, not suiting the skills of players, is a dead end for a coach, and the team. Which we are actually doing at the moment.

On the final part, it was also my guess that the injury makes Luka run slow, not the lack of conditioning. And these two are also somewhat connected. Luka comes from olympics where he was in top shape, so it just doesnt make rational sense he is out of shape, he came in near top conditioning. He has issues with injuries, and needs a rest. Totally agree the extra weight make him much dangerous bullying defenders.

If we can get another #1/3 guy, Luka could very well be the #2 guy too.

(12-16-2021, 09:26 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If we can get another #1/3 guy, Luka could very well be the #2 guy too.

That's an interesting thought. So Luka to set screens, then receive the pass from lets say Brunson? Then act as either scorer or distributor? Alternatively, Luka could as that pivot in the high post and be that number 2 guy (ala Jokic, Divac, Webber).

It might be possible. Luka has the size to consistently get and secure the ball in high post and he could be able to set screens with some practice.

However, in all cases it requires one more guy like Luka and Brunson. Skills of penetration, scoring, and passing. Then the game would flow like a river. If you just have passing skills, it doesnt work to make the offense flow. Need to have penetration ability to move them ball constantly, and scoring (shooting) in order to keep defenses honest, and finally passing to move the ball if the defenses can close out. Not many players have all three. We have two of these players with all those skills.

All our other players tend to stall the ball movement. The worst thing is that whoever Luka passes to now as the second recipient, is mainly always either a dunk (Powell) or a pure shooter without penetration and passing skills (DFS, Maxi, KP etc.).

The key to ball movement is the second guy.

(12-16-2021, 03:46 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]That's an interesting thought. So Luka to set screens, then receive the pass from lets say Brunson? Then act as either scorer or distributor? Alternatively, Luka could as that pivot in the high post and be that number 2 guy (ala Jokic, Divac, Webber).

It might be possible. Luka has the size to consistently get and secure the ball in high post and he could be able to set screens with some practice.

However, in all cases it requires one more guy like Luka and Brunson. Skills of penetration, scoring, and passing. Then the game would flow like a river. If you just have passing skills, it doesnt work to make the offense flow. Need to have penetration ability to move them ball constantly, and scoring (shooting) in order to keep defenses honest, and finally passing to move the ball if the defenses can close out. Not many players have all three. We have two of these players with all those skills.

All our other players tend to stall the ball movement. The worst thing is that whoever Luka passes to now as the second recipient, is mainly always either a dunk (Powell) or a pure shooter without penetration and passing skills (DFS, Maxi, KP etc.).

The key to ball movement is the second guy.

Interesting stuff.  I noticed numerous times in the game that the ball passed around the perimeter but NOBODY penetrated or cut to the basket.  You gotta pass for a reason or with a plan.  This around the world passing doesn't do anything but get you a long perimeter shot...which you can get any time.  There are still too many instances of clogging the paint.  If KP is going to post up...he needs to do a low post.  He is not good at the high post.

I'm expecting the Mavs to call me any day now for my coaching skills...

(12-15-2021, 05:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'm starting to wonder whether MBrown has a chance of breaking into the rotation. I think he might, mostly because of the nebulous nature of whatever it is that WCS is going though. For all we know, it could be the team shutting him down because they're trading him. 

But it doesn't take a fortune teller to predict that SBrown and/or Ntilikina will both be given every opportunity to get their minutes back from Green when they're healthy.

This is what I said about Kidd previously. For all of the statements about RC not being a player’s coach, neither is Kidd. He comes across as an equally strong willed person. 

At this point, what are the coaches waiting on to see?  Moses and Green both when getting minutes have done nothing wrong for others in front of them to get automatic minutes. Those guys in front are nothing special. Green and Moses bring energy constantly.  I see teams that are better than us like the Lakers and the Nets having young unheralded guys getting minutes and making plays. Yet the story with the Mavs seemingly over the last decade is that retread veterans deserve automatic minutes even though many a times they have played middling ball or made their share of low BBIQ mistakes.

Edit. Thybulle shot 30% from 3 last year and 28% so far this year. Yet he is played and lauded for his defensive efforts.  All these guys have flaws. There is a certain value in defensive energy also especially on a team where most want to play offense.

(12-16-2021, 05:13 PM)ballsrchr Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting stuff.  I noticed numerous times in the game that the ball passed around the perimeter but NOBODY penetrated or cut to the basket.  You gotta pass for a reason or with a plan.  This around the world passing doesn't do anything but get you a long perimeter shot...which you can get any time.  There are still too many instances of clogging the paint.  If KP is going to post up...he needs to do a low post.  He is not good at the high post.

I'm expecting the Mavs to call me any day now for my coaching skills...

Agree ballsrchr. Great obesrvation as well. Just passing without penetration, as DFS, Maxi, KP, THJ are doing, doesn't make much of a flow. Defenses easy close this out when its only pure passing to the next guy and nothing else than that. The players need also to move/penetrate/dribble to new positions (and know where and when to do that), and then pass the ball afterwards. The next player receiving the ball needs to do the same in many cases. This creates the flow.

When its done like this, then you get offensive flow, and its impossible for defenses to deal with this when multiple players in the same lineup can do the same.

And to make it even harder, these players need to also be able to shoot, otherwise defenders will not close out on them and that would stall the flow of offense and help the entire defense recover position.

At this moment, its ONLY our first player, the one brings the ball up, that has all these skills (penetrate, pass, shoot, bbIQ). This is either Luka or Brunson being number 1. The second player receiving, almost always, is one without all these skills, and then the ball stalls too often.

You don't see many instances where Luka (1) passes to Brunson (2). Or reverse where Brunson (1) passes to Luka (2) because they are both guards and this makes it difficult for them to directly pass to one another. Typically, the easiest flow is when the guard that brings the ball up (being 1), passes to a big or player in the high post (2, ala Jokic), and if that player has skills (which I believe Sabonis indeed has) to distribute the ball to number 3. And if the 3 could be Brunson, which has those skills as well, he could move it to number 4. This is the reason that I believe a player with skills of Sabonis would transform our offensive flow: from stalling at player 2 as the offense is now, to actually proceed to player 3, and if we keep Brunson even to player 4.

Sabonis has the skills of a PG, able to dribble past most if not all of the other bigs that try cover him, and positioning and passing skills to find the players around and distribute. He is not as amazing as Jokic, but after that, he might be the best other option in the league. And the defenses need to collapse on him, because he has such a great touch scoring inside in addition to his penetration and dribbling. He also has that positioning and bbIQ that are required to be in a place to receive the ball from number 1.