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Full Version: ARTICLE: "Luka Doncic and Rick Carlisle: The dissolution of their relationship"
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(12-16-2021, 03:23 PM)BackToSquareOne Wrote: [ -> ]It beats me why people keep referring to Carlisle like this. He lucked into winning one championship through being employed by the Mavs when they didn't completely screw the pooch on a line up during the endless years of Dirk. But that was a decade ago - it's ancient history. It's not like he's Pat Riley or Phil Jackson.


This is crazy talk. Who said he was Riley or Jackson? And the idea that he "lucked" into a championship is insane. Do you really believe that?
(12-15-2021, 01:13 PM)SwisherPrice Wrote: [ -> ]The MBT was a shitshow...should have been blown up as soon as Dirk stepped off the court. I can understand keeping everything in place to keep Dirk happy in his final years but once that was over, RC and Donnie should have been fired and the team could officially start over.
Donnie should have been fired waaaaay before the championship.
(12-16-2021, 03:48 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Donnie should have been fired waaaaay before the championship.

He likely brought us the championship. Dealt Josh Howard for Butler, Haywood, and DeSteve. Dealt Devin and Keith Van Suck's corpse for Kidd. Dealt Stackhouse for Marion. Dealt the DUST chip for Ty.
(12-16-2021, 04:04 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]He likely brought us the championship. Dealt Josh Howard for Butler, Haywood, and DeSteve. Dealt Devin and Keith Van Suck's corpse for Kidd. Dealt Stackhouse for Marion. Dealt the DUST chip for Ty.

Good one Scott! No need to dismiss Donnie's successes because of his failures. 

How about Luka?

I mean, maybe we should have gotten rid of the Nellies before the 1998 draft?
(12-16-2021, 04:04 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]He likely brought us the championship. Dealt Josh Howard for Butler, Haywood, and DeSteve. Dealt Devin and Keith Van Suck's corpse for Kidd. Dealt Stackhouse for Marion. Dealt the DUST chip for Ty.
With all the disorganization and inability to recruit, imagine if Cuban fired Donnie after the 2007 debacle and money whipped Jerry West to come take things over? We aren't talking about a singular championship then.
(12-16-2021, 04:25 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]With all the disorganization and inability to recruit, imagine if Cuban fired Donnie after the 2007 debacle and money whipped Jerry West to come take things over? We aren't talking about a singular championship then.


At that time there was no evidence that Donnie had any trouble putting a great team around Dirk, or that the mavs were disorganized. However, if Cuban could have hired Jerry West to GM in 2007 then he should have!
(12-16-2021, 04:07 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, maybe we should have gotten rid of the Nellies before the 1998 draft?
We didn't know what we had with them at that time, although I would say, Don's all offense coaching was not going to win us a championship either. I think I got on the fire Donnie bandwagon a couple years before the championship. Maybe we do worse with a different decision maker back then, I doubt it though.

For every negative scenario (we might not have Luka now), there are plenty of positive scenarios that can be made up too. If we don't have Luka now? Maybe we have a TEAM that is better than this is now and a different superstar or 4.
(12-16-2021, 04:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]We didn't know what we had with them at that time, although I would say, Don's all offense coaching was not going to win us a championship either. I think I got on the fire Donnie bandwagon a couple years before the championship. Maybe we do worse with a different decision maker back then, I doubt it though.

For every negative scenario (we might not have Luka now), there are plenty of positive scenarios that can be made up too. If we don't have Luka now? Maybe we have a TEAM that is better than this is now and a different superstar or 4.


If coach woulda put me in, we woulda won state. I'd be sit'n in a hot tub right now...with my soul mate

(12-16-2021, 04:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Vote for me and all your wildest dreams will come true...in stretchy pants!

By the way, I vote for you. Can I borrow your Sledgehammer?
(12-16-2021, 04:30 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]At that time there was no evidence that Donnie had any trouble putting a great team around Dirk, or that the mavs were disorganized.
Revisionist history. Plenty of evidence, namely all their 1st round exits. Donnie stumbled across a good roster in 2011 and Dirk was ready to put together the best playoff run the game has ever seen. If it wasn't for Dirk saving Donnie's butt all those years, he would have been shown to be the fraud of a GM that he is. Great scout, should've been head of the scouting department. GM? NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

(12-16-2021, 04:35 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, I vote for you. Can I borrow your Sledgehammer?
As long as you wear the stretchy pants!
(12-16-2021, 04:44 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Revisionist history. Plenty of evidence, namely all their 1st round exits. Donnie stumbled across a good roster in 2011 and Dirk was ready to put together the best playoff run the game has ever seen. If it wasn't for Dirk saving Donnie's butt all those years, he would have been shown to be the fraud of a GM that he is. Great scout, should've been head of the scouting department. GM? NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

As long as you wear the stretchy pants!

IMO Donnie was a very good coach. Whether his international coaching or coaching the Mavs the odd game when Nellie got tossed, I remember really liking his coaching style and rotations. However I can’t blame him for not going back to that once he got the GM gig. 

Donnie as a GM did very well the first half of his tenure here.  The Mavs should have won in 2006 and then had to do it with a different cast around Dirk and JeT in 2011. I will never take anything away from anyone associated with that title. All deserve a lot of credit. 

Where Donnie started showing his flaws is when Cuban was no longer the new kid on the block outbidding everyone else. Asset management, stacking picks, and hitting doubles instead of trying to hit home runs was not his forte.  He should have been let go a few years earlier. Luka was acknowledged as the top talent other than MPJ. Teams like Atl and Sac messing up is just their stupidity. Some other GM missing on him would be difficult to believe.
(12-16-2021, 05:22 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Where Donnie started showing his flaws is when Cuban was no longer the new kid on the block outbidding everyone else. Asset management, stacking picks, and hitting doubles instead of trying to hit home runs was not his forte.  He should have been let go a few years earlier. Luka was acknowledged as the top talent other than MPJ. Teams like Atl and Sac messing up is just their stupidity.


This is pretty much right on target, imo.
Enjoyed the read down memory lane.  But back to 2007, if Cuban would have hired West.  Would he have fired Avery and hired Rick a year earlier?  Also, would West have drafted Nick Fazekas in that 2007 draft?
(12-16-2021, 04:44 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Revisionist history. Plenty of evidence, namely all their 1st round exits. Donnie stumbled across a good roster in 2011....

Hold on there Nacho. Go check the tape. You started this with "2007". Now you want to use 2008, 2009 and 2010 as evidence?
(12-16-2021, 07:25 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Hold on there Nacho. Go check the tape. You started this with "2007". Now you want to use 2008, 2009 and 2010 as evidence?
If a person thought a GM wasn't the right person in that position, why would they want to go through those later years of 1st round exits? The meltdown of 2007 was plenty of excuse to make big changes. Before 2007, during the Don years, one could tell that the team wasn't built to win a finals if they weren't squinting so hard with their Mavs colored glasses on. They also weren't coached to win it all either (I'm talking during the Don years). Some really good pieces playing over their head (namely Josh Howard who I really liked, but he wasn't a #2 option on offense in a playoff sense), kinda like the last few years with this team currently.

I think it was the toine/tawn acquisitions that soured me on Donnie that told me he was just gonna keep doing things like that to ruin the team and build with an offense first mentality. That doesn't win championships no matter how hard a person wants it to.
(12-17-2021, 10:33 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If a person thought a GM wasn't the right person in that position, why would they want to go through those later years of 1st round exits?


We can file the first argument away, where we were talking about firing Donnie after 2007, if you want, and then start a new argument about firing him after 2010. Then you could bring in your 2008, 2009 and 2010 evidence! 

I was so mad after 2010 that I wanted to fire the whole organization except for Dirk and Roddy B! :-D

Glad they didn't the advice I posted back then!!!!
(12-17-2021, 12:17 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]We can file the first argument away, where we were talking about firing Donnie after 2007, if you want, and then start a new argument about firing him after 2010. Then you could bring in your 2008, 2009 and 2010 evidence! 

I was so mad after 2010 that I wanted to fire the whole organization except for Dirk and Roddy B! :-D

Glad they didn't the advice I posted back then!!!


Not sure why changing the argument to 2010 makes more sense, not really trying to move the goal posts in my thoughts. 2010 would have been just fine as well. Washington wanted rid of the guys they got rid of and wanted JHoward, that trade was still on the table for whoever would have come in after Donnie so not sure why changing Donnie to someone else negates the championship all of a sudden...all of Donnie's moves were on the table, plus some other moves that might have made the team even better (or worse, sure).
(12-17-2021, 01:52 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure why changing the argument to 2010 makes more sense...


Just because my first post, which you responded to, was specifically a reply to your saying that we should have got rid of him after 2007! And your response to that was to cite problems in 2008, 2009 and 2010!!
(12-17-2021, 02:24 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Just because my first post, which you responded to, was specifically a reply to your saying that we should have got rid of him after 2007! And your response to that was to cite problems in 2008, 2009 and 2010!!
There was also a pretty large problem in 2007.
(12-17-2021, 02:35 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]There was also a pretty large problem in 2007.

Avery!!!
UPDATE

Windhorst, MacMahon and Tim Bontemps elaborate on the original story in Windy's pod --

Why did McMahon use incidents before Luka was even drafted to prove his case against Rick?

They indicate that Rick had a long history of being abrasive, demanding, and mistreating people. 

For example, Dennis Smith. Luka was not upset that Smith was traded. He has not so far tried to throw his weight around on personnel matters, and by the time DSJ was traded, everyone thought he needed to go. Carlisle was right in his assessment of DSJ, but he didn't have to treat DSJ so poorly, and the fact that he did soured Luka on Carlisle. 

The point isn't so much the merits of the Carlisle-DSJ situation, it's that the Carlisle-Luka relationship was "cracked," trust was broken, and respect was lost in the first few weeks that Luka was here. 

Is it possible that Luka just has a problem with authority of any sort, not just Carlisle? 

That wouldn't be an uncommon issue with stars coming into the NBA, but thinks Carlisle broke the mold in terms of being hard to get along with. Besides, Luka didn't necessarily have a problem with how Carlisle treated him -- it was more how he treated other people. 

Luka is a very young guy. He still has some growing up to do. Yes, Luka was partly at fault in the Rick-Luka relationship, but Rick started it, Rick was the adult in the room, and it was Rick's control-freak, abrasive, rude nature that was the main problem. 

Is the fracture of that relationship indicative of organization-wide problems?

There is no question that the Mavs had one of the worst cultures in the league over the last ten years. TM refers to it as a Game of Thrones type atmosphere, with everyone trying to stab someone else in the back. 

They are trying for a cultural reset. Nico and Kidd as a coach didn't have anything to do with the prior culture. But this would be a tough job for the most experienced of GMs and coaches. Nico has never done this before, and things haven't gone great for Kidd so far. 

There is one constant in the situation -- Cuban. Nico is respected by people around the league, and is a very good communicator/connector. Kidd is prioritizing communication to the point of being a punchline, perhaps prioritizing psychology over on-court strategy, but at least he's trying. The Luka-KP relationship has been a little better this season, but the on-court product has not improved. In the final analysis, it's Cuban's job to clean stuff like this up. 

Is the decline in team performance Luka's fault?

Luka came in out of shape and is still bickering with referees. He is also defending very poorly. Luka doesn't need to become a stopper, but he can't perform this badly on the defensive end. 

Windy -- Is Luka really all that, anyway? Isn't he about the same player he was in his rookie year?

TMac -- Seriously? The guy has the talent to be one of the all-time greats. In fairness, he can probably have a multi-All-Star career playing his way into shape every year. But he won't be an all-time great that way. The roster around Luka is pretty bad, but Luka doesn't get a pass for their mediocre performance. He bears some of the responsibility. 

Do the Mavs appear to be on the way to getting back on track?

They wanted a cultural reset. They're getting it. But in terms of basketball performance, it's not at all clear that they're going in the right direction.  

How frustrating is this for MFFLs?

Windy --  It must be so depressing to be a Mavs fan. 

TMac -- It's an unhappy story. No one involved wanted me to write it. 

Bontemps -- The Mavs have Luka Doncic. They almost beat the Clippers in both of the last two first rounds. Cry me a river. 



https://www.espn.com/radio/play/_/id/32887844
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