(12-04-2021, 06:42 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Now it is up to him to realize that less talented or not, all the others here are professionals as well, and if he expects to dominate the ball it is a privilege that has been conferred on him and to understand what other things go with that privilege. He has to work on other aspects as well such as conditioning, diet, trying his best on defense, and being a gym rat to up his FT and 3 pt percentages. My comment on Luka last year was that he reminded me so much of a rec coach’s son. Talented but lazy and entitled and knowing no one will say anything because he is the coach’s son ( or in this case because even with all his flaws he is the rarest of commodities…a true franchise player)
I have a hard time conceiving that anyone becomes a star at RM, in the European League, in the Olympics, and in the NBA by being lazy and entitled. It seems to me that his resume embodies many years of hard work and devotion of time and energy to the profession, far beyond what the vast majority of people at those ages (or any ages?) ever even think about.
I guess there are always exceptions. Are we now assessing that Luka's success is a result of having the right relatives, and characterizing him as just another lazy and entitled little snot? Dang. Wouldn't a thunk it.
(12-04-2021, 06:42 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]What I have loved about Luka is that he wants that leadership. I don’t think the Mavs had to force that on him by moving JJB away. Day 1 here he wanted the ball in his hands and he was ready to shoot in the clutch. I have always maintained that efficiency is not the be all / end all as there is a fine balance between efficiency and not wanting to take the big shot. The fact that Luka has that attitude to go with his size and prodigious talent makes him a true alpha.
Wanting the ball in your hands a lot and wanting to take the last shot doesn't equate to leadership in my mind. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this paragraph.
(12-04-2021, 07:01 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I have a hard time conceiving that anyone becomes a star at RM, in the European League, in the Olympics, and in the NBA by being lazy and entitled. It seems to me that his resume embodies many years of hard work and devotion of time and energy to the profession, far beyond what the vast majority of people at those ages (or any ages?) ever even think about.
I guess there are always exceptions. Are we now assessing that Luka's success is a result of having the right relatives, and characterizing him as just another lazy and entitled little snot? Dang. Wouldn't a thunk it.
That’s what I thought too till I saw that JJB podcast.
Laziness you can see it in his defense. Entitlement is also part of that. When you put your teammates in 5 on 4 situations because you are constantly griping to refs that is an issue.
Coming out of shape now two seasons is an issue also shows that.
Regardless of what happened in Europe one doesn’t have to dig deep to see some things that are not good. Maybe the issue is that Euroleague despite being very good is not the NBA, and not being in shape to start the season or not caring much about defense, stands out much more in the NBA, which is still the best league by a mile.
(12-04-2021, 07:04 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Wanting the ball in your hands a lot and wanting to take the last shot doesn't equate to leadership in my mind. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this paragraph.
This was more about late game situations and having a supreme talent who doesn’t shy away. I have said previously that Luka should pace himself better the first 3 quarters and not dominate the ball as much as he wants to.
Also even in the clutch, it is not that I want Luka shooting it as much as that he demands the ball go through him. The next step in his evolution is while the ball goes through him, he makes better decisions like a Jokic.
(12-04-2021, 07:08 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]That’s what I thought too till I saw that JJB podcast.
Whoa, wait. WHAT?
Did I miss a Mavs related podcast?
(12-04-2021, 07:08 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]That’s what I thought too till I saw that JJB podcast.
Laziness you can see it in his defense. Entitlement is also part of that. When you put your teammates in 5 on 4 situations because you are constantly griping to refs that is an issue.
Coming out of shape now two seasons is an issue also shows that.
Regardless of what happened in Europe one doesn’t have to dig deep to see some things that are not good. Maybe the issue is that Euroleague despite being very good is not the NBA, and not being in shape to start the season or not caring much about defense, stands out much more in the NBA, which is still the best league by a mile.
Well, I have been educated, then.
What I still don't understand, though. If this guy is really nothing but a lazy, entitled little snot, just a veritable coach's son, offers nothing, has no talent, no skills, is just a fat guy who waddles in for games to please his rich connections, why are we even talking about his faults? Why not just bench him until what ever time he can be traded or waived? I don't see how anything else makes any sense.
(12-04-2021, 08:05 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]If this guy is really nothing but a lazy, entitled little snot, just a veritable coach's son, offers nothing, has no talent, no skills, is just a fat guy who waddles in for games to please his rich connections, why are we even talking about his faults? Why not just bench him until what ever time he can be traded or waived? I don't see how anything else makes any sense.
This type of hyperbole isn't really useful in what has mostly been a productive discussion thus far. No one offering criticisms of Luka are coming close to expressing this sentiment. And no matter what side of this conversation you fall on, we all have the same goal of Luka living up to his potential and being successful for the franchise we root for.
(12-04-2021, 08:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]This type of hyperbole isn't really useful in what has mostly been a productive discussion thus far. No one offering criticisms of Luka are coming close to expressing this sentiment. And no matter what side of this conversation you fall on, we all have the same goal of Luka living up to his potential and being successful for the franchise we root for.
Yep, a total strawman argument that is putting forward a position that doesn't exist here and most certainly does not accurately express the opinions and positions of those putting forward their thoughts in this conversation. Completely lacking in nuance and listening.
(12-04-2021, 08:05 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I have been educated, then.
What I still don't understand, though. If this guy is really nothing but a lazy, entitled little snot, just a veritable coach's son, offers nothing, has no talent, no skills, is just a fat guy who waddles in for games to please his rich connections, why are we even talking about his faults? Why not just bench him until what ever time he can be traded or waived? I don't see how anything else makes any sense.
I am learning as well.
It's difficult to even imagine in deepest dreams what could mavs gain for our fat lazy disfunctional leader on the market today...
But sarc on the side, mavs are far far away from having any serious leadership problems.
Maybe switching this tread title into personal can not follow the leader would have more sense.
I expect nobody will agre with that but that's OK.
(12-04-2021, 08:05 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I have been educated, then.
What I still don't understand, though. If this guy is really nothing but a lazy, entitled little snot, just a veritable coach's son, offers nothing, has no talent, no skills, is just a fat guy who waddles in for games to please his rich connections, why are we even talking about his faults? Why not just bench him until what ever time he can be traded or waived? I don't see how anything else makes any sense.
Really surprised that you would make this type of an argument. Look at all the things that I have written in favor of Luka in this very thread itself. The desire for correcting some glaring flaws is not to take anything away from his potential as a total franchise changer, but to ensure that he maximizes that potential.
My older one is just a couple of years younger and so I fully realize it comes across as if we are tearing down someone who is essentially still a kid in many aspects. Yes in many ways it is unfair. However what others might see as unfair is also that no matter how young, Luka also has a lot of clout and power within this organization or any organization he chooses to play for. With that kind of power, some of which he has exercised already (No doubt in my mind that RC would still be the coach if Luka wanted that; Cussing out Bob V. Whatever you think of Bob, only someone with a strong clout can cuss a grown adult in upper management), he is open to criticism also if he doesn’t keep his end of the bargain on things within his control.
Great players by and large contend by their fourth season. I’ve seen the Mav’s front office as the reason for the mediocre teams (and this year’s bad team) led by Luka. But really, more of the blame goes on Luka than I’d like to admit. He’s a transcendent talent but hasn’t added much to his game. He shoots under 70% from the line, which is absurd for a point guard with the league’s highest usage rate (and a huge decline from his level in Europe). The three point shooting has regressed. He complains to officials too often putting the team in bad defensive situations. It’s difficult for an average Joe to criticize someone like Luka, but he can be much more than what we’ve seen this year. It would be great if, to start, he could just make free throws at the same rate he did in Europe.
To put a bow on the original post, Luka and KP both sat against Memphis - who was also without their top two guys - and the Mavs lost a game about "the other guys".
The Mavs started Luka, THJ, DFS, Kleber and KP in last year's playoffs and those guys played 80% of the game.
Last night only Dorian started, and his time combined with THJ and Kleber accounted for only 40% of the minutes.
I started this thread noting the leadership (and maturity) vacuum on this team and it was indeed mainly targeted at Luka. He can be a much better leader on the floor. But Luka doesn't pick the lineups and he isn't the actual leader. That's the Head Coach.
I think it may be time for a critical examination of Jason Kidd's performance. We're 20 games in and this team has lost seven of nine, and it's last four at home. The top five guys on last year's playoff roster are still here yet they've started a grand total of zero games.
Maybe it's time to go back to what we know worked. This team sure looks like it's lacking direction. Kidd changed too much, too fast. The offense has tanked. The defense is inconsistent and middling at best. Basically nothing seems to be working and the team is spiraling.
My solution is to start the best five guys and see if we can get the team back on track. If KP and Kleber need to be load managed, that's fine, but don't limit their minutes when they play. You go Luka, THJ, DFS, Kleber, KP and play mostly five out. Brunson is your sixth man. Try to get guys in back in rhythm and playing like a playoff team. Then you mix-in Bullock, Brown, Ntilikina and the rest and let them earn more minutes.
If that doesn't work you really have to look seriously at a significant trade involving either KP for some rotation guys (a Westbrook to LA type deal worked well for the Wizards) or you deal rotation guys like Brunson + Kleber + DFS for a bigger name (Westbrook to LA in reverse).
Even if DFS gets a 2x multiplier on his current deal, that's still an incredible value and an asset we shouldn't just let walk away.
(12-05-2021, 02:32 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Even if DFS gets a 2x multiplier on his current deal, that's still an incredible value and an asset we shouldn't just let walk away.
I'd try to keep him under the MLE, myself. But to be totally honest, I think he deserves the MLE more than Bullock, and I'd think that even if Bullock was shooting better (which I still think will start happening, at some point).
Dorian is Jae Crowder except three years younger. Super valuable starter on a playoff team. Not a stopper but he plays the right way. Long, tough, versatile, rock-solid defender who keep himself in top shape and goes to war every night. Team-first guy. Makes the right pass, knocks down shots. And he's still getting better. Love Dorian. In fact, he might be the last of this team's problems. Crowder's number was 3/30 mil. DFS will get 4 / 45-50 mil.
(12-05-2021, 04:25 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Dorian is Jae Crowder except three years younger. Super valuable starter on a playoff team. Not a stopper but he plays the right way. Long, tough, versatile, rock-solid defender who keep himself in top shape and goes to war every night. Team-first guy. Makes the right pass, knocks down shots. And he's still getting better. Love Dorian. In fact, he might be the last of this team's problems. Crowder's number was 3/30 mil. DFS will get 4 / 45-50 mil.
Selfishly I hope it is less than that but I wouldn't hate it for the Mavs and certainly not for him.
(12-05-2021, 04:25 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]DFS will get 4 / 45-50 mil.
If so, why wouldn’t they just extend him?
After wading through this thread, and much of the rest of what has been posted the past few days, I have two thoughts...
1) The bottom line is that, if the Mavs or Mavs' fans don't appreciate Luka, warts and all, there are 29 other franchises who would salivate for the opportunity to take on all of those Luka problems. Not saying that Luka doesn't need to mature, grow, and improve at all, so don't strawman me, just saying, careful what you wish for, and what your attitude and perspective is.
2) If someone had told me before the season started that Kidd was going to try to implement the precise same defensive system that got him fired from the Bucks with the Mavs' weaker defensive personnel, I would have told them to quit putting me on. Insert angry JET gif here.
(12-07-2021, 12:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]1) The bottom line is that, if the Mavs or Mavs' fans don't appreciate Luka, warts and all, there are 29 other franchises who would salivate for the opportunity to take on all of those Luka problems. Not saying that Luka doesn't need to mature, grow, and improve at all, so don't strawman me, just saying, careful what you wish for, and what your attitude and perspective is.
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