MavsBoard

(10-04-2021, 01:02 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]One of the reasons peer review is valuable is precisely because bias can be present in a study. 

Peer review can, but doesn't always mean, the paper was checked for factual basis an accuracy. You can read the reviews and find out what the reviewers were looking for. 

And the peer review process is precisely because no single paper and no single review should be entirely trusted. The reviews aren't even automatically trusted. The author gets to respond to her reviewers and may very well be able to show that the reviewer was off. 

In peer review, when it's done correctly, everything is on the table for the entire profession to see, along with any non-experts that are interested. With humans involved, it's a good process we have for vetting our hypotheses.

Can be valuable. As far as vetting for human hypothesis, narrative matters in science it matters just as much as actual science. Corruption doesn't stop at the door to the lab.

"The traditional anonymous peer review has been criticized for its lack of accountability, the possibility of abuse by reviewers or by those who manage the peer review process (that is, journal editors), its possible bias, and its inconsistency, alongside other flaws."

"[url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-we-shouldnt-take-peer-review-as-the-gold-standard/2019/08/01/fd90749a-b229-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html][/url]Why we shouldn't take peer review as the 'gold standard"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/w...story.html

"Wall Street Journal op-ed: “Corruption of peer review is harming scientific credibility”
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10...8057/full/

My favorite: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/...eer-review

"Nobel Prize winner calls peer review “very distorted,” “completely corrupt,” and “simply a regression to the mean”
https://retractionwatch.com/2014/03/03/n...-the-mean/

But you get the idea. PR in 2021 is the barrier to entry for many established scientist to get the work seen and taken seriously and those that bar the boors, controls the flow of information. 

(10-04-2021, 12:20 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with a lot of this Kam, and of course I'll spare you the Bible study, because I think you know the scriptures. But, while "not my will, but yours be done", and "being burried with Him..." are core and central, our Father also asks us to bring our needs to him. Not that he does everything we ask, like a genie, but that he's compassionate, he hears, he sees and he may very well intervene when we ask. I think you can see that in the scriptures without having a "God is a vending maching" mentality.

A few thoughts:

1) Jesus tells us not to "babble on" with many words in prayer because our Father knows our needs before we ask. BECAUSE of that he then gives us the Lord's prayer, which teaches us to demand God's will and has nothing about our will/desires within it. 

2) Yes, God wants us to ask/beg/seek/pray...but not by bringing our "wants" to the table, but by asking, begging, seeking, and praying for HIS will. 

3) Not only "might" God intervene, he WILL intervene if we ask, beg, seek "rightly" (as James 4:3 puts it). Hence Jesus can say "Whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give to you." No "might"...he WILL give it, when we ask rightly, when we are asking and seeking HIS will and not our own. Hence Elijah, a man just like us, can pray for no rain and it stops for 3.5 years and then he prays again and it rains. Asking in "Jesus's name" is not adding that phrase to our prayers, but asking in the image and pattern of Jesus, bearing his name and identity in our lives and approach.


I am not suggesting we cannot be honest about our wants before the Father (shoot, Jesus was in the Garden!) but we need to immediately pivot out of those wants to demand God's will. And as we see, God's will is the way of the cross which is the exact opposite of having "my desires fulfilled."

(10-04-2021, 11:23 AM)luka_skywalker_77 Wrote: [ -> ]We can go through the number of studies that were retracted, proven false or otherwise conducted improperly if you'd like.

So the peer review system actually works? I never said that the system was perfect but as of now it is the best option we have. We also have to be really specific and for that you would have to give some examples. One of the biggest problems of the current system is that it takes a lot of time. Some are also questioning the transparency. That´s actuallly something I had to experience myself. Anonymous reviews are still a big part of the publishing process in scientific journals. In a world of specialist research there are only a limited number of people that are qualified to review certain papers. Can be really frustrating
if you are trying to get a paper out and the only options for a peer review are people from a rivaling project.

I still wouldn´t replace the system but some changes are needed. Some journals tried the "parallel open peer review". Following the old process but also making the work available for the public. Problem in that case is predatory publishing. Some journals and media outlets simply don´t care about the quality of the work as long as they are the first to publish it.
For the public and mainstream media it is difficult to understand if a work is still in progress or a finished. Would be nice if they would do a better job to highlight it.

In the case of COVID we had a lot of things that were published even though the work was still the open review/discussion process. In many cases the first available data of studies was published. So we aren´t talking about right/wrong. We are talking about preliminary results. Published because any kind of information that is shared between researchers could help. Published because politicians needed the max amount of information to make decisions. And yes. Probably also published because some wanted the fame, more research founding or other private benefits.
Thankfully by now we are getting more and more "finished" (medical studies are rarely really finished) research.

(10-04-2021, 11:23 AM)luka_skywalker_77 Wrote: [ -> ]We can start with the imperial college data model and move on from there.

That´s always an interesting talking point and even though you won´t like the way I phrase it I would call it a fallacy to say that projections like this are wrong. The mentioned models depend on given parameters. They are used to simulate the potential development of a pandemic. What a lot of people fail to acknowledge is that the parameters of the simulation aren´t comparable to the real life development because humans acted to prevent the simulated scenario. The simulations were based on a "no action taken scenario". With the best available data about the virus and human behaviour at that time.
Models like this lead to "flatten the curve" policies.  New models tried to account for the potential impact certain actions could have.

(10-04-2021, 11:23 AM)luka_skywalker_77 Wrote: [ -> ]Calling this akin to the smallpox vaccine is ridiculous. 

I only pointed out that the legislation to enforce vaccine mandates exists and was upheld in front of the supreme court.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-hi...1631890699

The majority opinion, written by Justice John Marshall Harlan, asserted that “the liberty secured by the Constitution does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint.” Quite the contrary. The Constitution rests upon “the fundamental principle of the social compact…that all shall be governed by certain laws for the protection, safety, prosperity and happiness of the people, and not for the profit, honor or private interests of any one man, family or class of men.”

we are not inclined to [uphold] the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated if it can be shown with reasonable certainty that [it] will seriously impair his health.” And he warned that vaccine mandates must not be implemented in “an arbitrary, unreasonable manner.” Only a public health emergency, as defined by the state legislature in consultation with medical experts, appeared to justify their use.

As of now this is still the go-to-authority when it comes to the vaccine mandates. Not up to me to decide if the the current pandemic justifies a mandate but based on this verdict they can be an option.

Might I also add for context; I've taken two shots and have advocated for my aging parents to do so as well. Most of what i know came to me as of the past 8 months. It was math I had to go through for myself and my family as it should for anyone else. 

However, I would not force that same decision on anyone else without my same, specific circumstances and responsibilities. This isn't a seat belt scenario. This is a substance being injected into our bodies with very little longitudinal information gathered. We do know who is affected and they need to make those decisions. But what is certain, is that you will get it and depending on your demographic stratification, survive it or not--but odds are you will.

You should have every data element, treatment, prophylaxes available and at your disposal. You should have your D levels checked and you should get plenty of air and exercise. All of those things are free/low cost and non invasive (but they have NOT been promoted). Instead, people are being bribed and coerced into taking the vaccine by way of lifestyle modification, rights removal, employment, etc. and none of that is okay.

(10-04-2021, 01:29 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]The majority opinion, written by Justice John Marshall Harlan, asserted that “the liberty secured by the Constitution does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint.” Quite the contrary. The Constitution rests upon “the fundamental principle of the social compact…that all shall be governed by certain laws for the protection, safety, prosperity and happiness of the people, and not for the profit, honor or private interests of any one man, family or class of men.”

we are not inclined to [uphold] the absolute rule that an adult must be vaccinated if it can be shown with reasonable certainty that [it] will seriously impair his health.” And he warned that vaccine mandates must not be implemented in “an arbitrary, unreasonable manner.” Only a public health emergency, as defined by the state legislature in consultation with medical experts, appeared to justify their use.

As of now this is still the go-to-authority when it comes to the vaccine mandates. Not up to me to decide if the the current pandemic justifies a mandate but based on this verdict they can be an option.

If this were an actual vaccine. They changed the definition of what a vaccine was to what this covid 19 vaccine is now. So they (vaccines) no longer have to stop anything--they've basically mandated a flu shot and might try to use SC precedent to back it up. That's why it's dangerous.

(10-04-2021, 01:19 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]A few thoughts:

1) Jesus tells us not to "babble on" with many words in prayer because our Father knows our needs before we ask. BECAUSE of that he then gives us the Lord's prayer, which teaches us to demand God's will and has nothing about our will/desires within it. 

2) Yes, God wants us to ask/beg/seek/pray...but not by bringing our "wants" to the table, but by asking, begging, seeking, and praying for HIS will. 

3) Not only "might" God intervene, he WILL intervene if we ask, beg, seek "rightly" (as James 4:3 puts it). Hence Jesus can say "Whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give to you." No "might"...he WILL give it, when we ask rightly, when we are asking and seeking HIS will and not our own. Hence Elijah, a man just like us, can pray for no rain and it stops for 3.5 years and then he prays again and it rains. Asking in "Jesus's name" is not adding that phrase to our prayers, but asking in the image and pattern of Jesus, bearing his name and identity in our lives and approach.


I am not suggesting we cannot be honest about our wants before the Father (shoot, Jesus was in the Garden!) but we need to immediately pivot out of those wants to demand God's will. And as we see, God's will is the way of the cross which is the exact opposite of having "my desires fulfilled."

That's great, Kam. Love it. Just don't want people to be hesitant to take needs to our Father because of the critique that some think of God as Santa Clause. 

You touched on it a bit, I think there is a fun discussion to be had about the co-working of God and human(s), and how prayer can work in that context. "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" appears to be something that he wants us to participate in through prayer AND action.

(10-04-2021, 01:39 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]You touched on it a bit, I think there is a fun discussion to be had about the co-working of God and human(s), and how prayer can work in that context. "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" appears to be something that he wants us to participate in through prayer AND action.

Yes, 100%. God wants to work through us and our prayers insofar as we are about his will, Kingdom, etc. And our prayer life should inform ALL of our actions. So when we demand that God's will is done, this drives us to be DOERS of God's will in all of our actions. When we demand that God only forgive us AS we forgive others (!!!), this drives us to be people of incredible forgiveness, holding no debts (yes, monetary included!).

(10-04-2021, 01:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, 100%. God wants to work through us and our prayers insofar as we are about his will, Kingdom, etc. And our prayer life should inform ALL of our actions. So when we demand that God's will is done, this drives us to be DOERS of God's will in all of our actions. When we demand that God only forgive us AS we forgive others (!!!), this drives us to be people of incredible forgiveness, holding no debts (yes, monetary included!).

I'm with you completely. At first I thought that your initial posts might have been suggesting that I was thinking of God as a genie because I pray for folks that are sick (among other things).

(10-04-2021, 01:47 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I'm with you completely. At first I thought that your initial posts might have been suggesting that I was thinking of God as a genie because I pray for folks that are sick (among other things).

No, who am I to critique your prayer life? I was just musing about the can of worms that prayer is and how what I see in us Western Consumers is generally a distortion of it.

(10-04-2021, 01:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, 100%. God wants to work through us and our prayers insofar as we are about his will, Kingdom, etc. ...

Love those "Gen 1 to Rev 22" themes

---

(10-04-2021, 02:00 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]No, who am I to critique your prayer life? I was just musing about the can of worms that prayer is and how what I see in us Western Consumers is generally a distortion of it.

I'm with ya

(10-04-2021, 12:56 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]....
All the anecdotal stuff I take with a grain of salt, because there are loads of variables as to why one person gets it and the other doesn't.

Still, more and more studies are being done and are being peer reviewed with the majority of them saying that natural immunity from contracting the virus last much longer than previously suggested and is as strong or stronger in many cases than immunity from the vaccine.

No one wants the virus and the whole point is NOT to get it, so vax away, but it's finish, imho, with all the studies I've read (not articles, but the studies) to just discount immunity from contracting the virus as nothing and say the vaccine is the only safe way.

Realize, I'm also a person who has lost about 10 friends to COVID, 4 of them FULLY vaccinated (do the statistics on that and mesh that with the numbers they are saying) and all of them on their first care of the virus.

I know no one who has gotten it, survived it, gotten it a second time and then had to be hospitalized on the second bout.  I know people who have gotten it twice, but all of them, the second time wasn't really a big deal at all.

That's just me, so, as I said, take the anecdotal stuff with a grain of salt, even mine.

Fantastic post @"TXBamanut" 

I would say take everything with a grain of salt.   
but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 

In fact, I find most of the posts in this thread very well thought out and expressed (most ) . 
Good stuff on all sides of the issues. 

(10-04-2021, 11:49 AM)luka_skywalker_77 Wrote: [ -> ]What's silly, is this idea that you will solve this crisis by vaccinating everyone, so let me explain a few things outright so that we can put that to rest. 

1. There will be no cure/vaccine for the common cold/flu/covid virus of any relatability, which is why this therapeutic is nothing more than a flu shot.
2. This vaccine does not stop transmission and in fact, the vaccinated and unvaccinated transmit at the same or even greater rates. 
3. The vaccine does not stop you from getting covid, but you may have a better chance at mitigating serious illness. There is a lot to be said for humans toying with the immune process--there isn't enough data to accurate predict how a long term immune management like will affect people.
4. People are not only dying from the vaccine, they are also dying after contracting covid while having the vaccine. There are also close to a million documented cases of side effects. 
5. You will require twice yearly booster the rest of your life at this point, so get used to it. 
6. Natural immunity is greater than a temporary, vaccine induced immunity. 
7. The unvaccinated pose no threat to the vaccinated and in fact, the vaccinated shouldn't care. 
8. There's a reason they stopped talking about breakthrough cases. 
9. This will not end with 100% vaccination rates because this leaky vaccine does not stop transmission or infection. If you want an idea about how 100% will play out, pay attention to Israel. 
10. They changed the definition of what a vaccine is to fit the narrative they want you to believe. It was changed from what we commonly know as a vaccine to something more of a therapeutic--which is what this vaccine is. This isn't a pox vaccine. It doesn't stop anything and they knew that months ago.
11. Masks have not worked in any place on earth in containing covid 19. 
12. Lockdowns have not worked in any place on earth in containing covid 19.
13. Advance/early treatment is still the best way to contain the outbreak. 
14. Ivermectin works and is proven to work. Limiting Doctors from prescribing it is allowing more people to die when they don't have to. It's their JOB to prescribe the best medication for the task, and that shouldn't be up to the gov't or some pharmacists to determine. If you want to talk about experts, you have no discussion here. 
15. Limiting the shipping of monoclonal antibodies is simply evil and political. This is what was given to Trump last year, under the name of regeneron. It somehow went relatively unpublicized because "idiots". 
16. 99% of all people infected with covid recover fine. That has never changed. A positive result has never been an automatic death sentence. 
17. 95% of all covid deaths in the US are over the age of 50 (with comorbidities). Anyone under that age should be able to make their own choices on taking a vax or not.
18. Kids are NOT affected by this pandemic, apart from the measures we've taken to limit them from the rest of society and to keep them out of school. No data supports this. 
19. We have more infections and deaths this year on a month to month basis WITH A VACCINE than we did last year without one. 
20. Lastly, Fauci funded GOF research and will pay for this. He's as culpable as anyone else in this regard and his involvement with the HIV treatments in Africa are simply a precursor to this. He has lied repeatedly during this pandemic and is nothing more than a politician at this point. 

** people aren't stupid (some are but generally speaking, no). They can tell when they are being lied to or at the very least, can tell when people are being disingenuous. The gov't and other public heath officials in the US and some other places, have been miscommunicating, flat out lying and misrepresenting basic information this entire time--not to mention, being the absolutely worst at basic analysis for policy's sake and for providing data for people to make up their own minds about their own situations. That, is fact. We in the US have the absolute worst collection of data regarding the pandemic and it's intentional. it's why they say "trust the experts/trust the science" while never providing you ANYTHING of basis for that. this is the gov'ts fault and it's Fauci's fault, period. They've done nothing but lie and obfuscate and what's worse, that has infected the science of it all. 

It's nothing more than a power grab--a reset of everything--and while we're chasing the covid rabbit, they're passing trillions upon trillions of dollars of aide you'll never see, increasing their authority over you, opening the country wide to any and person walking across the border, remaking and reshaping the demographic if this country to a bunch of people that have no idea why this country was built. It'll fall because we'd no longer be a country of Americans, but a country of random people with no commonality. And you can thank politicians, social media/big tech and democrats and weak kneed republicans (about 80% of them) for that. 

And it's all figure-headed by an old, senile dementia patient that loves ice cream and early bed times...

I am not going into detail on each of your claims. Aldready did that yesterday. Can only say that I disagree with a lot of things you are claiming. Also interesting to see that you are calling me out because I am arguing from a position of truth. What exactly are you doing right now?
On a side note: I guess the Mavs board is a safe place and I don´t have a problem with it. Don´t think this post would surive on other social media platforms. Conspiracy theory away folks.

(10-04-2021, 03:08 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Conspiracy theory away folks.

I think Skywalker hit them all in one post. We don't censure but we consolidate! 

Also, I now want a sheep hearding alpaca

I started to respond to luka_skywalker_77's list, but it's truly futile.  While I don't pray or request prayers for myself I truly hope everyone stays safe.  COVID-19 is personal with several of my relatives dying from it.  When my wife of 50 years passed away nearly 5 years ago, I married a nurse from the Philippines 33 years my junior.  She's currently a nurse in the COVID ward at a local hospital.  I'm certain many of you have been affected by this virus in similar ways.

WAB

Everyone, I’m going to have to request you keep your posts shorter with less quotes in them - I’m having a hard time scrolling through everything to see if anyone “liked” MY posts.

Thank you for your cooperation.

(10-05-2021, 04:44 AM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone, I’m going to have to request you keep your posts shorter with less quotes in them - I’m having a hard time scrolling through everything to see if anyone “liked” MY posts.

Thank you for your cooperation.

I think if we stick to claims and assertions and leave out all the pointless evidence we can probably accomodate you!

Participation in this board is very important to me and I think some of the topics here are well worth discussion. I'm proud of the members that they can have polarized discussions with anonymous IDs and not get into a flame war. So much of what has been written over the last 7+ pages is attributable to one's belief system, including topics of interpreting test results, how to manage COVID and what prayer means. Some of these concepts are a 700V third rail for most casual interactions, but this group has developed enough internal respect to make it work. I applaud the bravery for the posts and the courage to try and understand opposing viewpoints.

I, personally, agree with some statements made by both sides and, at the same time, don't agree with some statements made by both sides. My personal style is more of an observer, but that doesn't mean I have my own beliefs. At times, I do have to take a breath and not go all Dan Ackroyd...

(10-04-2021, 03:22 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I think Skywalker hit them all in one post. We don't censure but we consolidate! 

I love it when people call things conspiracies, while refuting nothing at the same time. Please, if you can, dispute anything I've said. I think I've been about as candid as I could. I've not posted a falsehood and perhaps that's what gives you a reason to dismiss. 

Again, I'm not unsympathetic. I am vaccinated. I'm in a target demo but I'm also fairly knowledgeable about things beyond the scope of the mainstream. If you feel it make you more comfortable placing your trust in institutions that have repeatedly lied to you, be my guest, while dismissing less palatable information as conspiracy, be my guest. But let's not call that anything more than compliance for the sake of compassion.

There is a place for empathy, but there is also a place logic and data and it seems most have replaced one for the other.

(10-05-2021, 09:18 AM)luka_skywalker_77 Wrote: [ -> ]I love it when people call things conspiracies, while refuting nothing at the same time. Please, if you can, dispute anything I've said. I think I've been about as candid as I could. I've not posted a falsehood and perhaps that's what gives you a reason to dismiss. 

Good point. My bad on jumping in with the "conspiricy theory" comment. Thanks for your posts recently sharing about where you're at personally! 

Regarding giving you feedback about your long list of items. I hope this isn't a cop out, but I just don't have time, or really the experitse. Doing research about each of those topics in order to have something worthwhile to say would take an enormous amount of time that I just can't give. 

Much of what I read in your list are assertions that just flat out contradict the little bit of CDC material and few studies I've read. Is seems like more knowledgeable folks have had something to say about a few of your items. 

Here's what it comes down to for me. I understand that governments are often not honest. Unfortunately, the U.S., like most others, seems to be willing to attempt to get their outcomes by any means necessary. This has lead to atrocities perpetrated by the U.S. that politically loyal folks spend their time trying to defend. **Danger Will Robinson, don't fall into rabbit hole**

BUT, I do actually appreciate the scientific method and am willing to put stock in actual studies performed, written and reviewed by educated experts in the field. And so I'm willing to go with the information about Covid that's put out by actual experts. The inherent dishonosty and willingness to use "any means necessary" of government has not corrupted all of the medical doctors and scientists that are doing good work. 

So when I see you list claims that go against what I'm reading from doctors and scientists that are in the mainstream then I forgo jumping down the research rabbit whole. Unfortunately, i don't have the time, or really even background, to become an expert myself. 

AND...I'm not willing to do a bunch of reading and present myself as an expert. I have expertise in a small scope of things, and medical science is not remotely in that scope. 

Side bar: if this really has become the summer, sprawling, all encomasssing debate (and humor) thread, then...

I visit this really cool site called Peaceful Science. Their message board is on a platform called Discourse (discourse.peacefulscience.org). It's this great place where actual scientists talk science, and layfolk, like me, can participate. And there is a lot of discussion that touches science/religion debate, which I'm interested in. And because of the evolution/creation debates extant in our culture, folks show up at times, without scientific expertise, to try and coach up the scientists. And it becames really obvious that these "internet experts" are wading in to waters that are too deep for their knowledge base and skill sets. 

So there's a long, meandering post where I claim not to have time for long meandering research!