So I’m seeing lots of people saying this off-season was a failure and the FO didn’t do enough. Let’s be honest with ourselves - Lowry was going to Miami, Ball was going to Chicago, Kawhi was staying in LA, Collins was staying in ATL. After the top few guys, this FA class got weak very quickly. I’m not certain there were really any needle movers after the top few guys. One of the biggest risks I saw was locking in a bad contract on a guy just in the name of “doing something”. (I personally think Lowry is included in that. I feel like this is the basketball version of the Emperor’s New Clothes)
Rather than grade the FO on what they did do, I want to hear what people would have done this off-season that would have been better. Let’s please stick to realistic options. And for arguments sake you can go ahead and take credit for them offloading JRich for nothing.
That is a tough question, but a fair one. My plan for the offseason may not have worked because Derozan got more than I expected. But my favorite path meant losing Hardaway, which would have hurt. But I didn't see a path for improvement working around the edges. And signing Hardaway meant we would be trying to improve around the edges.
So, Derozan as the secondary playmaker. Danny Green/Batum as your 3 and D wing. Lastly, a low cost PF type like Millsap or hopefully someone younger to split the PF minutes.
Would that have made us better? Not sure. But that was the best path I could come up with minus getting one of the top 5 free agents.
Mavs clearly identified biggest need - a good two way guard who can create. There were three of those - CP3, Conley, Lowry. Mavs were not able to convince any of them it makes sense playing next to arguably top 5 player in the world. They even doubled down on that - they failed to add any secondary ball handler. It is easy to say those other guys wanted to be elsewhere. But sorry, that is the whole point of recruitment. Convince them it is better to be in Dallas. That is their job. Mavs doubled down on FA and failed miserably again. That is why it is difficult to make alternative plan - the plan was to go FA way, there were really no alternatives but to be successful in FA. Alternatives were 2 or 3 seasons ago.
Mavs are basically running it back. They didn't show improved ability to recruit and (so far) showed zero cap creativity. If I am being very harsh, they are fooling Luka, fans and themselves that adding a couple of role players will make them contenders. This offseason is just another in a row of more of the same.
If Mavs really couldn't convince top guys to play in Dallas, it would make more sense to replenish asset base imho. Instead of fooling ourselves that running it back will suddenly make us a contender, grabbing some assets would make sense. Cap space is gone and trades are the only way to improve from now on.
(08-07-2021, 07:19 AM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]And for arguments sake you can go ahead and take credit for them offloading JRich for nothing.
Could you please explain why do you think this was such an achievement? What did Mavs gain by offloading him? They didn't use the cap space and (so far) didn't use the TE. One would think there was a plan behind his trade, but doesn't look so. All other moves could be done with JRich on the roster. This feels like last season - dumping Wright at any cost, no matter what we get back. Like he was the reason for Mavs (bad) results. With the main difference - JRich is expiring, Wright was not, so JRich was much easier to trade.
In retrospect, assuming that signing A and B+ level players is off the table, it looks like Patty Mills should have been the last guy added instead of the ridiculous pursuit of Dragic. Brooklyn signed that guy for peanuts, and he just tore up the world’s greatest players at the Olympics.
(08-07-2021, 08:11 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Mavs clearly identified biggest need - a good two way guard who can create. There were three of those - CP3, Conley, Lowry. Mavs were not able to convince any of them it makes sense playing next to arguably top 5 player in the world. They even doubled down on that - they failed to add any secondary ball handler. It is easy to say those other guys wanted to be elsewhere. But sorry, that is the whole point of recruitment. Convince them it is better to be in Dallas. That is their job. Mavs doubled down on FA and failed miserably again. That is why it is difficult to make alternative plan - the plan was to go FA way, there were really no alternatives but to be successful in FA. Alternatives were 2 or 3 seasons ago.
Mavs are basically running it back. They didn't show improved ability to recruit and (so far) showed zero cap creativity. If I am being very harsh, they are fooling Luka, fans and themselves that adding a couple of role players will make them contenders. This offseason is just another in a row of more of the same.
If Mavs really couldn't convince top guys to play in Dallas, it would make more sense to replenish asset base imho. Instead of fooling ourselves that running it back will suddenly make us a contender, grabbing some assets would make sense. Cap space is gone and trades are the only way to improve from now on.
Could you please explain why do you think this was such an achievement? What did Mavs gain by offloading him? They didn't use the cap space and (so far) didn't use the TE. One would think there was a plan behind his trade, but doesn't look so. All other moves could be done with JRich on the roster. This feels like last season - dumping Wright at any cost, no matter what we get back. Like he was the reason for Mavs (bad) results. With the main difference - JRich is expiring, Wright was not, so JRich was much easier to trade.
I was really hoping for a different conversation with this thread than the same old “MBT is awful” some people keep espousing
(08-07-2021, 07:26 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]That is a tough question, but a fair one. My plan for the offseason may not have worked because Derozan got more than I expected. But my favorite path meant losing Hardaway, which would have hurt. But I didn't see a path for improvement working around the edges. And signing Hardaway meant we would be trying to improve around the edges.
So, Derozan as the secondary playmaker. Danny Green/Batum as your 3 and D wing. Lastly, a low cost PF type like Millsap or hopefully someone younger to split the PF minutes.
Would that have made us better? Not sure. But that was the best path I could come up with minus getting one of the top 5 free agents.
Derozan was definitely a possibility. I think it could have worked but I’m no expert. I imagine it would have had to have been a S&T still. Would you have been willing to give him the $85/4 he got? Depending on how the money worked would you have been willing to give up a future 1st to be able to sign your second guy?
And Batum was probably off of the table because he said he wanted to go back to LA before free agency started.
I’d probably be more excited about this though just because of the new more familiar names coming in.
(08-07-2021, 08:27 AM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]I was really hoping for a different conversation with this thread than the same old “MBT is awful” some people keep espousing
People don't have to agree with your feelings. That's the beauty of this forum. A lot of people aren't going to change their opinion of MBT until they are given a reason to. A couple of nice role players doesn't change most people's minds. I'm happy they signed the players they did, but it doesn't make us a lot better. We'll still be fighting for the 5-8 seed most likely unless we make more moves.
(08-07-2021, 08:19 AM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: [ -> ]In retrospect, assuming that signing A and B+ level players is off the table, it looks like Patty Mills should have been the last guy added instead of the ridiculous pursuit of Dragic. Brooklyn signed that guy for peanuts, and he just tore up the world’s greatest players at the Olympics.
Yeah, this I 100% agree with. I would love to have seen a Mills and Milsap signing.
(08-07-2021, 08:38 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]People don't have to agree with your feelings. That's the beauty of this forum. A lot of people aren't going to change their opinion of MBT until they are given a reason to. A couple of nice role players doesn't change most people's minds. I'm happy they signed the players they did, but it doesn't make us a lot better. We'll still be fighting for the 5-8 seed most likely unless we make more moves.
People don’t, but when a thread is titled “what would you have done?” maybe try answering the question or keeping your complaining to another thread so there can be some diversity of topics in the forum.
(08-07-2021, 08:39 AM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]People don’t, but when a thread is titled “what would you have done?” maybe try answering the question or keeping your complaining to another thread so there can be some diversity of topics in the forum.
I thought I tried to explain. If the FA way is the way Mavs chose, there is no way to be successful but attracting top FA. So what would you want me to say? I would have signed Lowry.
(08-07-2021, 07:19 AM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]So I’m seeing lots of people saying this off-season was a failure and the FO didn’t do enough. Let’s be honest with ourselves - Lowry was going to Miami, Ball was going to Chicago, Kawhi was staying in LA, Collins was staying in ATL. After the top few guys, this FA class got weak very quickly. I’m not certain there were really any needle movers after the top few guys. One of the biggest risks I saw was locking in a bad contract on a guy just in the name of “doing something”. (I personally think Lowry is included in that. I feel like this is the basketball version of the Emperor’s New Clothes)
Rather than grade the FO on what they did do, I want to hear what people would have done this off-season that would have been better. Let’s please stick to realistic options. And for arguments sake you can go ahead and take credit for them offloading JRich for nothing.
I see what you are doing Soog. You are trying to use logic and facts and reality to try to diffuse people’s anger. Well, it won’t work mister. A year from now, no one will remember the nuance of your point. What they will remember is we had $30 million in space and all we got was Bullock and THJ (back) and Sterling and Moses. The narrative that will survive is this is the third off-season in a row blah blah blah blah.
I actually don’t think the issue for most is what we did. It is what we didn’t do or could have done. Bullock for the MLE seems like good value. Sterling at $3 million is a contract with some risks and some nice upside. With WCS being free next summer and Boban a year older, I don’t mind Moses as a developmental big (developmental in terms of he might be a good backup some day).
If you are going to make an argument for something different, it costs you THJ and you are probably operating under the cap. Maybe NO or Detroit would do a S&T for Hardaway and send you something minor. In the real world, we can’t make favorable trades happen just because we think they should. Also, Bullock would eat cap space instead of the MLE if he is part of the plan. I’m not sure Fournier/Bullock or Norman Powell/Bullock is any better than THJ/Bullock (and I’m really not interested in Graham at the cost of a first rounder). As Chicago points out DeRozan would have cost THJ AND Bullock.
For me, the only thing I might consider is turning THJ into more value contracts (Bullock would be one). I would have loved Batum. Maybe Theis or Holmes (given we know what they got in perfect hindsight). Patty Mills? I guess if I were king for a day and could make people come here and could know dollar amounts in advance, I might have done Holmes/Theis plus Batum plus Bullock and would not have kept WCS. But, there is a reason the Hardaway’s and Trent’s and Powell’s and Fournier’s of the world all got $18mm. I’m afraid my value contract approach would have missed Hardaway’s ability to hit 3’s at a high volume.
(08-07-2021, 08:51 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]As Chicago points out DeRozan would have cost THJ AND Bullock.
Actually SA took Aminu and Young for DeRozan. So the cost could be more like a FRP than those two guys. So, Kleber (or even better JRich)+Powell+Burke+FRP for DeRozan, resign THJ and sign Bullock with MLE. Of course we can argue endlessly if this is better or not. Just saying it was possible.
(08-07-2021, 08:56 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Actually SA took Aminu and Young for DeRozan. So the cost could be more like a FRP than those two guys. So, Kleber (or even better JRich)+Powell+Burke+FRP for DeRozan, resign THJ and sign Bullock with MLE. Of course we can argue endlessly if this is better or not. Just saying it was possible.
Good point. That’s not bad. I’m probably weird, but I would have rather had T. Young than DeRozan at the deal he got.
(08-07-2021, 09:02 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I’m probably weird, but I would have rather had T. Young than DeRozan at the deal he got.
I think we are dealing way too much with "the deal he got" point. I think our final move will have a certain level of risk and will be overpaid. Either in assets or salary or both. At some point Mavs will have to pull a trigger on such a deal. Just as Houston had to pull a trigger first on Westbrook and later small ball, just like Milwaukee had to pull a trigger on JRue,...
That is why I don't really care if this last move is an overpay, if it is the right one. I honestly think Lowry (especially if he could also be combined in a SnT) would be such a move. I can agree DeRozan would probably not be a solution. Young is a nice player, but unfortunatelly just more of the same as far as Mavs are considered. We only have 15 roster spots and just so many minutes to give around.
(08-07-2021, 09:08 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I think we are dealing way too much with "the deal he got" point. I think our final move will have a certain level of risk and will be overpaid. Either in assets or salary or both. At some point Mavs will have to pull a trigger on such a deal. Just as Houston had to pull a trigger first on Westbrook and later small ball, just like Milwaukee had to pull a trigger on JRue,...
That is why I don't really care if this last move is an overpay, if it is the right one. I honestly think Lowry (especially if he could also be combined in a SnT) would be such a move. I can agree DeRozan would probably not be a solution. Young is a nice player, but unfortunatelly just more of the same as far as Mavs are considered. We only have 15 roster spots and just so many minutes to give around.
I think that is why I wouldn’t mind Maxi or even Maxi plus something for LM at the dollars FG has been talking about. I don’t see that as THE move, but I suspect LM will have more value than Maxi when the time comes for making THE move.
As to DeRozan, the deal he got is the deal he got. I suspect it will look horrendous toward the end. I have no issue with passing on it. Something I meant to say in my first post, I’m really pleased they quickly pivoted to Bullock once it was clear none of the elderly big dollar PG’s were coming here.
Richardson
Powell
Burke
WCS or Brown or not re-sign Boban
(08-07-2021, 09:20 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t see that as THE move, but I suspect LM will have more value than Maxi when the time comes for making THE move.
I agree that is very likely. The only problem could be, if Mavs would be unable to put Markkanen in position to succeed. If he would play badly because his weaknesses are exposed, he might lose value. I am sort of sad, because we could really use JRich contract in many of these deals. I really hope Mavs use TE. Dumping JRich for nothing didn't add value, imho.
I have no issues with the Richardson trade, Bullock signing, or Sterling Brown signing. My main grievances, in no particular order, are:
1) They punted on the draft. Declining to take a flyer on a player with some upside in order to keep roster spots open for last year's busts makes no sense to me. The draft is a crapshoot and you need to keep trying.
2) Did not address the secondary playmaker issue. The offense is going to struggle again this year when Luka sits, and there will be no one who can reliably take advantage of Luka being doubled late in the game.
3) Did not add a rim runner to play with Luka in the pick and roll. I'm less concerned about this one if Kidd intends to use Porzingis this way, but I won't hold my breath. Ideally this player would also add some rim protection/rebounding.
What I would have done instead:
1) Make a move for a high upside player who fell to late in the 1st or 2nd round. Guys like Jaden Springer at 28 and Jericho Sims at 58 would have been more interesting than anyone who was drafted last year.
2) Instead of re-signing THJ, go after Devonte Graham. He's a better defender, can still shoot the ball, and can actually function as a point guard. No, he's not the star secondary playmaker we were hoping for. But I think he could have elevated his game playing off of Luka. Even Jason Terry shot poorly from the field before landing in the right situation. It should not be difficult to beat the 47/4 deal he got from New Orleans. There are even ways to make this a sign and trade if needed.
3) Sign Richaun Holmes. Ideally KP would have been traded and Holmes would be the starting center. Even though that didn't happen, I still think Holmes brings so much of what the Mavs need that they should have pulled the trigger anyway. He could start at the 4 in certain matchups and come off the bench in others. I think he would be extremely useful late in games when teams tend to go smaller. Dallas could easily beat the 55/4 he got from Sacramento.
4) Trade Brunson + Powell for Rubio. This gives Dallas a pure point guard to run the offense when Luka sits, and moves Powell's 2022 salary so that it's easier to extend DFS, spend next year's MLE, or make another trade that adds salary without worrying about the luxury tax implications.
Then I would see the depth chart looking something like this with DFS taking minutes at the 4 and Holmes minutes at the 5. Bullock/DFS are your starting forwards when Holmes comes off the bench.
Luka / Rubio
Graham / S. Brown
DFS / Bullock
Holmes / Kleber
Porzingis
I'm hoping that Luka plays this game with the MBT next week. Saying something like this - So you what me to sign this extension, tell me how you are going to improve the team this offseason. Please don't tell me we are running the same team back from last season.
For me, I was hoping for 3 new starters, a new C, PF and G combo. So yes, I was/am hoping they trade KP. I would of used THJ money to fill another spot and then Bullock could replace JRich for the TPE as stated by Soog. Also, anyone not named Luka can be traded in the "I'm King for a day plan".
What's happening now seems like Cuban hired a new GM/Coach and gave them the same rule book of how to operate. So, here is hoping Luka takes up the King for a day task next week when sitting down w/Cubes, Dirk, Nico, Fin and Kidd.
I would have traded KP for Zion.
Still too early to tell. We will make a trade at some point. That will probably be a better time to analyze the offseason
We knew going in we weren’t getting any of the top guys or top secondary guys with bird rights on a decent team(D Robinson or N Powell). Lowry was really the only one worth going under the cap and he chose elsewhere so we move on.
I would rather have Mills, Caruso or Theis for the MLE over Bullock, but maybe he ends up being just what we need? I don’t believe Batum or THT were real options who would’ve come here.
The lesson we must learn is to grab the guys that want to be here. Lauri and Dragic must be mavs somehow someway. The real failures of previous offseasons are Randle, Thad Young, Hield, Curry etc