MavsBoard

(06-22-2021, 08:46 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]2) I think there is ALWAYS room in the NBA for the transcendentally gifted/skilled, regardless of the current "prototype." So I am not suggesting there will be ZERO small guards, I just think the future of the NBA will make being a small guard such a rare thing that those who do succeed as "stars" will be noticeable exceptions.

Yeah, I agree with this. 

So, what are the things that make those guys transcendent that Brunson doesn't have? I'm really asking here, because no matter how well Brunson plays, I kind of share your opinion about his ceiling, but it's more intuition than anything else for me.  Is it speed? Quickness? Basketball IQ? He has become a good shooter, imo, and is improving still.

(06-22-2021, 08:53 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I agree with this. 

So, what are the things that make those guys transcendent that Brunson doesn't have? I'm really asking here, because no matter how well Brunson plays, I kind of share your opinion about his ceiling, but it's more intuition than anything else for me.  Is it speed? Quickness? Basketball IQ? He has become a good shooter, imo, and is improving still.

I thought he’d show a bit more passing acumen and willingness than he has. I think he can get into the lane just fine, but he gets stuck if he can’t figure out a way to get a shot. I think he could be deadly if he figures this out. 


BTW, part of that is on the offense that doesn’t have much movement to it. But he has to be looking for it too. I’ve seen plenty of convergence when he gets into the lane, so there has to at least be a small opening to pass the ball effectively.

(06-22-2021, 09:17 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I thought he’d show a bit more passing acumen and willingness than he has. I think he can get into the lane just fine, but he gets stuck if he can’t figure out a way to get a shot. I think he could be deadly if he figures this out. 

In your opinion, is this due to selfishness? Basketball IQ? Court vision (size having to do with that)?

I agree that ball movement has been worse these past couple of seasons than what we're used to seeing from Carlisle's Mavs, and I haven't been able to decide if it's a change from him (which in light of recent events would seem like a move towards analytics) or just relying on ball-handlers who are at younger and not quite as seasoned in their understanding of how to play his brand of offense as what we're used to. And then, of course, there's the fact that the efficiency of the offense has actually improved during that time, despite what my eyes tell me is an uglier, inferior style of play. 

It's a lot to process, imo.

(06-22-2021, 09:28 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]In your opinion, is this due to selfishness? Basketball IQ? Court vision (size having to do with that)?

I agree that ball movement has been worse these past couple of seasons than what we're used to seeing from Carlisle's Mavs, and I haven't been able to decide if it's a change from him (which in light of recent events would seem like a move towards analytics) or just relying on ball-handlers who are at younger and not quite as seasoned in their understanding of how to play his brand of offense as what we're used to. And then, of course, there's the fact that the efficiency of the offense has actually improved during that time, despite what my eyes tell me is an uglier, inferior style of play. 

It's a lot to process, imo.

Hmmm, I have a hard time pinning it on selfishness. 


I think he found something that worked for him in the regular season that the Clippers were able to almost completely gobble up in the playoffs. We have to remember that while this is the Mavs second playoff berth, this is JB’s first to play in. I think he probably learned a lot in this year that he can take with him and mold his game accordingly.

Also need to remember that what was working for him in the regular season was getting noticed by national media, so again, he went into the playoffs doing the same thing, but met the buzzsaw and didn’t know how to adapt.

Maybe that is on bbiq, maybe it is about not using his time in the regular season to get more reps on other aspects he’s figuring out. 

I think he is a smart player and will come back next season much more prepared, but time will tell.

(06-22-2021, 08:52 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]The issue with KP is injury. So it is kinda pointless IMO to compare Simmons skill set.  KP has certain pros and so does Simmons. Plus even if this year is an aberration in terms of KP’s defense, he will never be a defender like Simmons 

If you were just told you have a center who can guard 1-5, can rebound, has handles, and can pass, you would automatically consider that player as a terrific player. Whoever gets Simmons has to look at his scoring as a bonus. 

I guess it is all moot anyway right now.  We don’t even have a GM.

I disagree.  You would never consider a playing shooting 30% from the FT line and afraid to take a shot making for 30 mill a year a good investment. That's a ridiculous one-sided statement that buries the point (on both sides, yours and mine)...there is no team in the league who can have a max player on the floor that can't even touch the ball because he's afraid to shoot or take a free throw.  If he's making 20 million or 15 million, it's not a big deal...and truthfully, no one is fussing about KP if he's making 15 mill, but neither him nor Ben Simmons are.

For example, if you were just told, you have a center who can score from the logo or the rim, handle the ball and space the floor averaging 2 blocks a game for his career...everyone would jump on that. but that's not telling the whole thing either (re: injuries, last season's dip).

Also size is a factor, but only in the sense that he has to just work harder than the bigger guys to get it down to perfection.

(06-22-2021, 09:40 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I think he is a smart player and will come back next season much more prepared, but time will tell.

Yeah, I feel that he's very much a work in progress, and I think he's smart, which bodes well. 

I tend to agree intuitively with @"Kammrath" about his future, but I can't really put my thumb on why I feel that way. I don't have a problem with small guards at all, personally. I think maybe it's the combo of small and SLOW.

(06-21-2021, 06:03 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, I posted that yesterday...just so we know...but it's not too original of a thought.

Apologies...didn't mean to steal your idea. Trying to keep up with all the threads + do a job + life in general makes it hard to keep up sometimes.

(06-22-2021, 09:44 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]Apologies...didn't mean to steal your idea. Trying to keep up with all the threads + do a job + life in general makes it hard to keep up sometimes.

Yes, this past week has challenged my need to stay on top of every post. I seriously go away for 2 hours and there are full pages of posts in multiple threads added to read. Exhausting to say the least, but somewhat rewarding when you get through all of it.

So I got creative today, what do you think? 
Could exchange Powell for Nurkic too

(06-22-2021, 08:53 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I agree with this. 

So, what are the things that make those guys transcendent that Brunson doesn't have? I'm really asking here, because no matter how well Brunson plays, I kind of share your opinion about his ceiling, but it's more intuition than anything else for me.  Is it speed? Quickness? Basketball IQ? He has become a good shooter, imo, and is improving still.

Is JJB a transcendent player?  We would not have won a title without him. 

Take the last decade and go through the draft. So many guys who had prototypical height and athleticism but didn’t make it. 

I agree that with Luka never going to be a great defender we need defense from all other positions. Length and wingspan are undoubtedly important.  However there will always be a spot, at least on the bench, for guys who have heart and can play.

(06-22-2021, 10:11 AM)Thukydides Wrote: [ -> ]So I got creative today, what do you think? 
Could exchange Powell for Nurkic too

Great job at making POR a finals favorite with that one

(06-22-2021, 09:42 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree.  You would never consider a playing shooting 30% from the FT line and afraid to take a shot making for 30 mill a year a good investment. That's a ridiculous one-sided statement that buries the point (on both sides, yours and mine)...there is no team in the league who can have a max player on the floor that can't even touch the ball because he's afraid to shoot or take a free throw.  If he's making 20 million or 15 million, it's not a big deal...and truthfully, no one is fussing about KP if he's making 15 mill, but neither him nor Ben Simmons are.

For example, if you were just told, you have a center who can score from the logo or the rim, handle the ball and space the floor averaging 2 blocks a game for his career...everyone would jump on that. but that's not telling the whole thing either (re: injuries, last season's dip).

You are focusing on offense. I can make the case that there are players who make 30mill plus and are a total negative on defense and it is difficult winning a title with those folks too. 


Not disagreeing that there are huge red flags but he also is a 6’10 athlete who, if his head is on right, can impact games without scoring much. Plus again, if he didn’t have this glaring flaw he would be an untouchable.

(06-22-2021, 11:09 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Not disagreeing that there are huge red flags but he also is a 6’10 athlete who, if his head is on right, can impact games without scoring much. Plus again, if he didn’t have this glaring flaw he would be an untouchable.

People forget that he held Trae to 5-23 shooting in game 7 and also dished out 13 assists on 2 turnovers. 

Meanwhile Embiid had 8 turnovers in the game. 

Tobias Harris was 3 for 8 in the 4th. 

Seth Curry only had 2 shot attempts in the final 7 minutes. 

Simmons is becoming the scapegoat because it's easy to show his lowlights and failed FT's. He's far from the main reason why Philly lost though.

(06-22-2021, 10:28 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Is JJB a transcendent player?

You might laugh at this, but I would argue that yes, from about 2010 on JJB was one of the best pick and roll ball-handlers in the NBA. 

I think not re-signing him that summer was just as big of a mistake as letting Chandler walk.

(06-22-2021, 12:48 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Simmons is becoming the scapegoat because it's easy to show his lowlights and failed FT's. He's far from the main reason why Philly lost though.

I think it is more accurate to say he was 1 of the many main reasons they lost.

(06-22-2021, 01:59 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is more accurate to say he was 1 of the many main reasons they lost.

I would go so far as to say that Simmons wasn't one of the main reasons why they lost. He did his job. He held Trae to <40% shooting from the field for the entire series. He averaged 9 apg for the entire series on 2 turnovers per game. 


The 76ers then asked Ben to be their closer. To create a shot for himself. He is NOT that. He has never been that.  That has been obvious for a long time and I truly don't understand the vitriol being slung to Simmons as if we've all just learned he can't shoot. 

Again. Simmons did EXACTLY what he was supposed to do. He limited their offensive superstar to 5-23 of the game. He didn't turn the ball over while running the offense well. But Philly asked him to do more. 

Asking Simmons to close the game out would be akin to the Warriors asking Draymond Green to do the same thing, which we all know would be ludicrous. And if a coaching staff puts his players in that sort of position the blame falls on them. Rivers once again proves himself as a useless coach in dire situations.

(06-22-2021, 08:03 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't this the big question here.  Was it coaching or is KP just a bad fit for one reason or another.  

His entire career KP has been a net positive in On-Off.  +5.7, +2.4, +7.5, +3.0 and then this year he was -4.9.  But, this was by far his best performance in TS%.  It was by far his best WS/48.  He had his highest PER, his highest OBPM, his highest TRB%, his lowest TO%, his highest O-Rating.  He had his highest ever FT%, 2%, FG% and his second highest 3% at .376%.  Heck, he hit 62.5 of his corner 3's.  It's not like he didn't shoot the ball.  FG Attempts per 36 were the second highest of his career as were his points per 36.  He looked lost and frustrated and under utilized offensively most of the season, but if we look at the numbers (instead of some idealized Unicorn that we think exists), Carlisle arguably got more out of KP than anyone has ever gotten so far in his career.  He got plenty of shots and usage and actually put up his best offensive year ever.

When you say mis-utilized, I assume you mean offensively.  My apologies if you meant defensively.  But, defensively is where the problem was.  We were 2.5 points better offensively with KP on the floor.  But, we absolutely died defensively with KP on the floor.  We were 6.8 points worse defensively with KP (which accounts for the -4.9 On-Off).  Blocks and Steals...worst of his career.  D-Rating...worst of his career.  DWS and DBPM...worst of his career.  Was that on Carlisle?  Maybe, but that doesn't meet the eye-test to me.  Was his decline injury related?  If so, I would expect to see improvement as he got more and more into game shape.  I don't see that in the monthly splits.  Was it mental fatigue and frustration with the challenging locker room?  Maybe, but KP was certainly a contributor to the toxicity.

I think you have to lay most of KP's problems on KP.  When he shoots, it is one of the least efficient shots we can shoot since almost the entire team has a higher TS% than him.  Yet, he gets the second most shot attempts per game.  But, as I say, I don't think offense is the issue.  If there is an argument for his pathetic D being a one-time aberration, then let's make that argument.  If there isn't, then let's move on to someone else.

You say offense wasn’t the problem. I watched literally every Mavericks game this season. Despite some of the metrics you reference, KP was inconsistent at the very least, and I think his numbers ultimately ended up averaging out to be ok.  However, if you think 13/5 over 7 games in the playoffs is Carlisle getting the best out of KP in his career.....I’m not I’m with ya bro

Defensively I’m more on the same page with you although I think KP played better in spurts over the last 20 games of the season and at times during the playoffs. Hopefully his strength, agility, and knee health will improve more over the offseason. But as others have alluded to, the NBA is becoming a position-less league which may ultimately limit his defensive upside.

(06-22-2021, 10:56 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Great job at making POR a finals favorite with that one

Now I´m curious. Do you think the Mavs say no to this deal?

Pretend for a moment that JRich has opted out and in the first minute of free agency, THJ signs with someone else.  You now have $33 million in space.  Ben Simmons and KP are both free agents.  Ben wants 4/$147mm (starts at $33mm).  KP understands his injury history and is willing to take 3/$101mm (starts at $31.6mm), but he wants a PO that final year in case he happens to have a really good run the next two years.

Do you sign Simmons at 4/$147mm?

Do you sign KP at 3/$101mm?

If someone made you sign one of the other, which would you sign?