Trade & FA 2023-24: Lavine Market Barely There| NOP Want Trae or Murray - Printable Version +- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com) +-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Lavine Market Barely There| NOP Want Trae or Murray (/showthread.php?tid=2444) Pages:
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RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - RGP1981 - 05-16-2024 (05-16-2024, 10:50 PM)The Jom Wrote: You keep saying Wiggins. But isn’t this series showing he isn’t playable? His minutes have diminished every game, while his coach searches for a guy to fill in for Giddey but isn’t choosing him. He’s hit 1 of his last 9 from the 3-point line. And he’s listed at 6-5, not 6-6. Don’t see what there is to love there. Fair question... but who is he going to take minutes from? The OKC Thunder need Dort in the game to defend Luka. Then their best back-court players are SGA and Jalen. When they are down, they aren't going to go away from those 2 to Wiggins. They also need Giddey to help with play-making, Joe to provide movement shooting, Jaylin to provide some minutes with more size. (05-16-2024, 10:50 PM)The Jom Wrote: Josh and Tim both outplaying him from my vantage point. I don't see this. Also, OKC has a club option for a measly $2m. If he can be gotten at that salary or a little higher, wouldn't that help? If not Wiggins, I'd be happy with Isaiah Joe, especially if the Mavericks can also trade for Caruso... because Caruso and Joe provide different things that compliment each other coming off the bench. - Kyrie/Caruso, DJJ/Joe, Luka, PJW, Lively/Gafford. Joe is a cheaper THJ with better off-ball movement, shoots better, possibly defends better too. Caruso is a better Josh Green, with more play-making. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-16-2024 (05-16-2024, 11:05 PM)RGP1981 Wrote: especially if the Mavericks can also trade for Caruso... If the Mavs can trade THJ for Caruso, and then re-sign DJJ, I think they are way done (as far as players who will get regular minutes). I don't think a player who has other offers where he's likely to get minutes would sign here (for a minimum). Here's your 10 deep. Gafford-Lively (Powell) PJW-Maxi (Omax) DJJ-Green (Lawson?) Kyrie-Caruso (Hardy) Luka-Exum min RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - The Jom - 05-16-2024 (05-16-2024, 11:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: If the Mavs can trade THJ for Caruso, and then re-sign DJJ, I think they are way done (as far as players who will get regular minutes). I don't think a player who has other offers where he's likely to get minutes would sign here (for a minimum). Here's your 10 deep. Like this. Also like Thybulle in the Caruso spot. Or Pat Connaughton. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - RGP1981 - 05-16-2024 (05-16-2024, 11:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: If the Mavs can trade THJ for Caruso, and then re-sign DJJ, I think they are way done (as far as players who will get regular minutes). I don't think a player who has other offers where he's likely to get minutes would sign here (for a minimum). Here's your 10 deep. Trading for Caruso would be awesome in itself... but if the Mavs can get him, then to cover all in-game scenarios, I think your 10-deep squad needs a good catch-and-shoot guard who also has good off-ball movement (like Isaiah Joe), to change things up at times. This seems more important than Exum in your list, since you already have DJJ, Caruso, Green... and Exum is like a timid-Caruso-lite. Joe could be used in so many combinations because of his potential to get quick buckets from three. Just 1 example: Luka and Kyrie on the bench for a breather? No problem, run with Caruso-Joe-Green-PJW-Lively/Gaff. He can also play with 1 of Luka/Kyrie when the other is sitting because his gravity as a shooter means he can't be left alone. So, my tweaks: Gafford, Lively.......... (Jericho Sims?) PJW, Maxi................ (Omax) DJJ, Green............... (Lawson?) Kyrie, Joe................ (Hardy) Luka, Caruso............ (Aaron Holiday?) RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-17-2024 (05-16-2024, 11:32 PM)RGP1981 Wrote: Trading for Caruso would be awesome in itself... but to cover all in-game scenarios, I think your 10-deep squad needs a good catch-and-shoot guard who also has good off-ball movement (like Isaiah Joe), to change things up at times. This seems more important than Exum in your list, since you already have DJJ, Caruso, Green... and Exum is like a timid-Caruso-lite. If you are wanting to make this about Exum vs Joe, Exum is a PG. None of the others are, nor is Joe. But just as relevant to the question about Exum and Joe, both are already under contract (at a very low price) for another season with their teams. Team options, technically, but neither will be declined. Joe isn't going anywhere. As for whether the Mavs need a designated shooter, so to speak, I think it's already taken care of in the scenario you've created. Caruso would fill that role, of a backup who is a very efficient shooter, and he's also not going to be a drop-off in defense. Otherwise I also don't have any hesitation to see those shots going to players like PJW, DJJ, Green etc, both to keep them engaged and also to make them more of a 2-way threat. I agree they would be wise to add a cheap guy to bring into such a role, either a PG type or a shooter type, because Hardy is not efficient enough to be the answer, and imo he's not getting better. All they will have is a minimum, assuming the MLE goes to DJJ. But just like OKC found Joe out there available, there should be someone available who is flying under the radar, if they can properly identify him. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - RGP1981 - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 12:09 AM)F Gump Wrote: If you are wanting to make this about Exum vs Joe, Exum is a PG. None of the others are, nor is Joe. But just as relevant to the question about Exum and Joe, both are already under contract (at a very low price) for another season with their teams. Team options, technically, but neither will be declined. Joe isn't going anywhere. Well, I think we're mostly on the same page... but just to clarify... I'm not wanting to make this about Exum vs Joe. In the scenario we were talking about (i.e., getting Caruso), I think Caruso effectively replaces Exum as PG and/or defensive wing. So then (with Caruso + DJJ + Green on the squad), I feel there is no need for Exum, and the focus should shift to finding a designed shooter (to coin your term) who is not named THJ. I also agree with you about Hardy not being efficient enough so far, and that Joe will be really hard to pry away from OKC because of that cheap team option. I would still like the Mavericks FO to enquire though and even overpay for him a bit if he can be gotten. Now here's where I think we might disagree... i.e., does Caruso fill the role of a designated shooter type, who can come into the game and attempt to throw flames for 10-15-20 minutes? I don't think he is a shooter like that, not in the same way that guys like Isaiah Joe and Jordan Hawkins are. He gets his shots and points in the flow of the game. Whereas guys like Joe and Hawkins create their own opportunities for their shots mainly through their off-ball movement, thus helping to take more scoring pressure off Luka and Kyrie. Then you also have Hardy to offer a different type of scoring pressure relief, through a more 1-on-1 type of game. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 (05-16-2024, 10:40 PM)RGP1981 Wrote: Herb Jones, Jaden McDaniels... those are the guys who would be defensive upgrades on DJJ, but not by much. Pretty crazy that I think this statement is fairly accurate. I never would’ve believed DJJ could be this significant of a defensive asset before this season. PJ either, for that matter. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 (05-16-2024, 08:54 PM)F Gump Wrote: ETA - I do think DJJ is such a good fit that it would make no sense to look for an alternative if you don't have to. How long have we longed for a superior wing defender? His agility, smarts, and length/leaping ability makes him pretty much everything we could want in that area, and he also has ways to be a factor on the offensive end. From time to time I see ideas of looking for better offense at his position, but I would much prefer to find that added offense from DJJ getting a bit better, rather than from a replacement whose defense will be worse (and likely MUCH MUCH worse). And if we pursue a player who is strong defensively AND on offense, we end up paying $40M rather than $10M, plus the cost to get him here is super expensive (and probably impossible). Agreed…as long as he keeps hitting open 3’s. And, don’t look now, but the sample size is getting bigger and now includes some successful playoff minutes. Don’t misunderstand me – I don’t need him to be a great offensive player or even a great shooter. But, I strongly feel that he has to be a WILLING shooter, and that he has to make enough of them to either avoid the Giddey treatment or make the opponent pay for it. As long as that continues, yes. Keep him around! RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 Thybulle might be gettable, as are some of the other names I’m reading. Caruso is not, I don’t think. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-17-2024 (05-16-2024, 11:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: If the Mavs can trade THJ for Caruso, and then re-sign DJJ, I think they are way done (as far as players who will get regular minutes). I don't think a player who has other offers where he's likely to get minutes would sign here (for a minimum). Here's your 10 deep. This will probably be an unpopular opinion around here, but with that roster I have the starts as: Lively/PJ/Luka/Caruso/Kyrie And the primary bench as: Gafford/Maxi/DJJ/Green/Exum Somebody said upgrading DJJ without losing anything on defense would cost a fortune, but I think Caruso fits that bill. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 12:39 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Thybulle might be gettable, as are some of the other names I’m reading. You think he will cost more than Timmy + first? Would you do Green + first and then dump Timmy with a second or two to sign DJJ? RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-17-2024 I think you're sleeping on Exum. There's a lot of recency bias on him in these discussions (not just you), and I am in the opposite camp. It wasn't so long ago that he was seen here as the IDEAL 3rd guard to rotate with Luka and Kyrie, because of his skills, his improved shooting, and his defense. He got injured. While he's healed enough to play, I am guessing he's still a bit hobbled, impacting his effectiveness and shooting in the moment. And now he's seen as yesterdays news, readily discardable. But I'm guessing the Mavs see him through a different lens than right now, and rightly so. In addition, I suspect that he will at some point again look like the guy we thought was the ideal 3rd guard. If the Mavs trade THJ for Caruso (which is far from a given, of course, but sticking with the scenario), I find the DS concept valueless. Won't miss THJ. Won't wish we had someone like him. Will be comfortable if the shots are spread around, with multiple players who can hit a 3. Thinking PJW might be even better next year, and need to shoot more, making it all moot (as there's only 1 ball). Will be glad to have plenty of defenders and both-end players at all times, rather than adding matadors. One other note in general - because of the hard cap issue re Mavs overall payroll, if they are working on a path to more salary for DJJ, those final minimum salary slots will have to either go to players on pure one-year deals, or to players who are rookie, or entering 2nd or 3rd year. Otherwise the minimum salary uses up more of the room under the hard cap, of which they might be needing every bit they can get. The point being, players who are outside those limits probably won't end up on their radar because of the payroll impact. Gotta keep their eye on the target -- DJJ. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:00 AM)mvossman Wrote: You think he will cost more than Timmy + first? Would you do Green + first and then dump Timmy with a second or two to sign DJJ? I don’t know if Hardaway and a first does it or not (kind of doubt it), but I wouldn’t make ANOTHER deal sending out a first from the distant future for a bench player. Further, I highly doubt a bench role is the best option the league will have to offer Caruso, so I don’t think he’d be up for it. Dumping Hardaway, along with a small sweetener, in order to take back less salary and then allocate the money more wisely (DJJ) is much more in line with what I think we can expect. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 I’m with FGump on Exum. I saw enough this year not to give up yet. What’s wrong with him might be very fixable. What’s good about him has proven to be hard for the Mavericks to find. In order to have a good team, there will need to be one or two rotation players on minimum contracts, and he represents one of their better chances at that for next season. Now, if we go through all of next season, and he is disappointing again in next year’s playoffs, it might be time to look elsewhere rather than pay him more than the minimum. Who knows, maybe he will be willing to sign another minimum deal. I could be talked into that just based on how much he helped during the regular season, even if I knew he wouldn’t be an option come playoff time. The point is, there is much left for us to learn about Dante Exum, and it only costs a minimum salary to find out. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:07 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don’t know if Hardaway and a first does it or not (kind of doubt it), but I wouldn’t make ANOTHER deal sending out a first from the distant future for a bench player. Further, I highly doubt a bench role is the best option the league will have to offer Caruso, so I don’t think he’d be up for it. This is where we are on a different page. I think Caruso starts. He can play defense at the same level as DJJ while bringing more on the offensive side of the ball. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 12:39 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Thybulle might be gettable, as are some of the other names I’m reading. You may be right, but THJ-Caruso (with side value added by Dallas) was an idea I felt hit the sweet spot for Dallas, and I'm willing to talk that idea. THYBULLE. I think Thybulle is likely to be available at a much lesser price (an even THJ swap with no picks imo), but I also think he's a much lesser player than AC. His offense is generally bad, and mostly invisible. I have others I like way better for THJ. He doesn't entirely solve the money-for-DJJ with certainty (it's probably only up to 6.5-7.0M, instead of 5.2M, which is something but it's not a relatively huge bump). Then again, FWIW yes I would swap THJ for MT before I'd want to keep THJ. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:20 AM)mvossman Wrote: This is where we are on a different page. I think Caruso starts. He can play defense at the same level as DJJ while bringing more on the offensive side of the ball. I might have been right there with you two months ago, but I actually think DJJ is a better POA defender. I think he’s good enough at it to where you’d be giving up some of your defensive versatility with Caruso. Before this season, I wouldn’t have thought DJJ could handle that role consistently, but with so many big ball handlers in the league right now, he ends up there more often than not, and he can even keep up with some of the smaller guys, which is great, because he smothers them with his length. But, he gives you the option of moving him off of the ball where he can still wreck havoc in situations wherein Luka is able to handle one of the guards. If you switch him out for Caruso, you are stuck with Caruso on a backcourt player whether they are good enough to justify using your best defender on them or not. This leaves Dončić stuck guarding threes and fours all the time, even when they are Paul George types. Trust me, I get that there’s an argument to be made about the offensive benefits of Caruso. A couple of months ago, I would have thought exactly as you are, wanting to get quicker and thinking of Luka more overtly as a forward. Idk… watching this defensive length that Dallas has working is winning me over. I am very close to just accepting and believing, finally, that Jones Jr is a special defensive player and the perfect fit on this team. I just think he gives you options that Caruso wouldn’t, matchup wise. I would be thrilled to have Caruso as the third guard behind Dončić and Kyrie Irving, but again, I think his britches are a little bigger than that. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - KillerLeft - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:28 AM)F Gump Wrote: You may be right, but THJ-Caruso (with side value added by Dallas) was an idea I felt hit the sweet spot for Dallas, and I'm willing to talk that idea. No argument here, other than what I believe is an overly optimistic view on a path to acquire Caruso. I think Thybulle is one of the most overhyped players this board has ever fetishized, and said so often and loudly during that hellish few days when the Mavericks had an offer sheet signed by him. In no way do I think he compares to Caruso in terms of all around skill or playability, and I even think his defense is overrated in a vacuum. I agree with you that he is gettable for something similar to just Hardaway, and the only reason I would be slightly interested in that deal this time around is that we would no longer be talking about the job that Derek Jones Junior just won, but rather a chance to compete for the bench job Green can’t quite get his arms around. I can reluctantly envision him having a chance to be successful there. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:31 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I might have been right there with you two months ago, but I actually think DJJ is a better POA defender. I think he’s good enough at it to where you’d be giving up some of your defensive versatility with Caruso. I think Caruso can handle big wings better than you would think. I don't think you would be giving up much versatility. And as great as a defensive player DJJ is, I think he has a fairly negative impact on the other side of the ball. I know you have been frustrated in the past with our limited spacing, and having both PJ and DJJ in the starting lineup is a big part of that problem. Plus, it would be really nice to have DJJ come off the bench as our primary backup forward. RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-17-2024 (05-17-2024, 01:38 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: No argument here, other than what I believe is an overly optimistic view on a path to acquire Caruso. I am generally very pro defensive players, partially because a year ago we hardly had any, but sending out Timmy for Thybulle might be overkill. Where I think DJJ straddles the line of being a real negative offensively, Thybulle is well over it. |